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 Post subject: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:42 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:28 am
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Location: SF Bay Area
model: 900 SS
year: 1995
(I obtained permission from the forum moderator for this post.)

Hello Paso Owners,

I run a site for the Cagiva Elefant and Ducati E900 bikes (http://www.elefantadventurebikes.com). Since 2002 I have developed a series of electrical upgrades for those bikes that have proven to be very popular. I have been working for a while now to expand the kits to cover all the Ducs and BMWs.

One of the E900 owners who bought some kits for his E900 also owns a couple 907s and suggested I make kits for the Paso series. Although I hadn't planned to go back that far in the years, I have now added HICAP kits for all of the Paso series bikes. During my field research (I personally hand measure every bike) I found that there are 4 different configurations in that series and they don't start/stop based on the bike model numbers. So after purchase, there is a small bit of checking to make sure you get the right kit for your particular bike but I do have purpose built kits for each version.

I'm now selling the various electrical upgrade kits at my new site http://www.motolectric.com/.

The first product release is the starting upgrade kit called the HICAP - High Capacity All Copper DC Distribution Circuit.

I refer to it as a starting upgrade and not a starter upgrade as your starter motor is fine, it is the current flow capacity of the starting circuit which is the problem in 99% of the bikes that are hard to start.

I have had the new series kits on Ebay for a few weeks and the Paso kits are the 3rd most popular so I guess that rider was right when he said the Paso bikes have starting issues. A few Ebay Paso kit buyers commented to me that they were surprised at the quite small wire used on those early bikes (but it is only marginally larger on later Ducs and those bikes still don't start as they should).

I have a highly detailed page about the starting upgrade kit here:

http://www.motolectric.com/hicap.all.html

there are embedded Youtube videos to show the before and after effect on a 17 year old bike and a 2 year old bike.

But basically my new starting circuit should allow your bike to start in about 1 second depending on its state of tune.

As a new site launch special I am paying the Priority Mail shipping to anywhere in the world.

And you can order kits for any other Ducatis you might own and get the same free shipping. If I have listed your bike on the form I can supply you with a purpose built kit for the bike.

I don't do one size fits all type products.

I am just finishing up the last few pages on the site and since I wear all the hats right now there may be links that aren't quite working right but the

detail page above is online and a page that you can order from is here:

http://www.motolectric.com/hicap.ducati.html

One final note, I have moved to bare copper terminals instead of the tinned copper terminals shown in the current photos. Since I supply a very high quality dielectric grease and cover the terminals with shrink down to just the bolt hole the copper terms will be protected against oxidation and the bare copper is softer and will conform better to their mating surfaces for superior current flow across the junction of the 2 surfaces. The shrink/grease plus the tinned copper was too much of a belt and suspenders solution against corrosion and going all bare copper has some real world advantages long term.

I'm happy to answer any questions.

Michael Heth
mheth@motolectric.com


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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:49 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:53 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Taranaki, New Zealand
model: 906 Paso
year: 1989
Hi all,

I ordered one of these kits through ebay recently. Michael was straight away in communication over email to confirm the exact locations of solenoid wrt to the battery to identify which of the various possible configurations I had. Photos were exchanged to confirm what sort of kit it needed. It is one of the best communication exchanges prior to shipping I've had with an ebay vendor.

I've also ordered in the past from the Cagiva Elefant site he mentioned (dumbo development labs) - and gotten good service.

I'll let everyone know how the install goes.

BTW - I don't know this guy, never met him, and have nothing commercial to gain from this post (you never know on forums these days).

Cheers,

Mick

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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:56 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:00 am
Posts: 704
Location: CNY, US
model: 750 Paso
year: 1988
Michael -

I just clicked the link to your site, and GoDaddy is reporting that the domain expired and is pending renewal or deletion (as of yesterday). I'm sure it's just unfortunate timing, but I thought I'd mention it in case you weren't aware.

I'm interested in finding out more about your products; keep us posted.

Thanks,
Jake

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1988 Paso 750 #753965
1997 Monster 750


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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:22 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:50 pm
Posts: 3189
Location: Hilltown,Pennsylvania
model: 906 Paso
year: 1990
He is on Fleabay as well
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150437148679&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

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Ducati,making mechanics out of riders since 1946
There's no problem so bad that a little fixing can't make it worse! : )
If it ain't broke keep fixin it till it is
88 750
90 906
92 907ie


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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:59 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:00 am
Posts: 5255
Location: southern Germany
model: 750 Paso
year: 1987
I`m wondering a bit. It`s says: 4 gauge wires. That corresponds to 25mm², if I`m not wrong. That`s thicker than the starter wires in my car. Sounds a bit over the top to me. For what the starter requires a good AWG 8 (10mm²) is absolutely sufficiant. Good for 65A and better than the original wiring.

G.


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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:28 am
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Location: SF Bay Area
model: 900 SS
year: 1995
fasterdammit wrote:
Michael -

I just clicked the link to your site, and GoDaddy is reporting that the domain expired and is pending renewal or deletion (as of yesterday). I'm sure it's just unfortunate timing, but I thought I'd mention it in case you weren't aware.

I'm interested in finding out more about your products; keep us posted.

Thanks,
Jake



Yes, Godaddy flakes on auto-renewals all the time and I can't figure out why since all the data is current. Site will be back online tomorrow. Sorry for the snag. But you can view the info on Ebay and it is the same. I'm passing on the Ebay fee as free shipping when you buy from my site.


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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:47 pm 
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Location: SF Bay Area
model: 900 SS
year: 1995
paso750 wrote:
I`m wondering a bit. It`s says: 4 gauge wires. That corresponds to 25mm², if I`m not wrong. That`s thicker than the starter wires in my car. Sounds a bit over the top to me. For what the starter requires a good AWG 8 (10mm²) is absolutely sufficiant. Good for 65A and better than the original wiring.

G.



According to the generic data available it is overkill but if 8 GA were sufficient then new bikes wouldn't be starting slow after only 12-18 months. When I first started the kits in 2002 I had both 8 GA and 4 GA and the price was only $15 different as most of the cost is in the labor and other things beyond the cost of the wire itself. But I had both on the EAB site and never sold a single 8 GA kit as everyone ordered the 4 GA.

With the 4 GA kit it can deteriorate a good bit and still be able to flow all the current the starter requires. Another point is that the wire I use is made by a speciality company and they themselves only claim it will flow 70 amps while most of the charts online would say 4 GA will flow 150 amps. So it's my professional opinion that most of the charts are not accurate when you get down into the 12 volt range and when you are flowing DC. They are probably fine for 110+ VAC.

But here's the cold start event I think every rider wants with every one of his bikes
Mobileme is not responding so I've just changed the link to show the video from Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pUXJW8BgKY

the E900 is my bike starting with a HICAP I installed 6+ years ago, FCRs (so no choke), 3 year old battery and 60 degree temp. Without the HICAP the bike might not start at all anymore.

Thanks,

M./


Last edited by Motolectric on Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:52 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:50 pm
Posts: 3189
Location: Hilltown,Pennsylvania
model: 906 Paso
year: 1990
G, keep in mind your typical auto battery has way more capacity than any motorcycle battery. Also electrolytic migration severely cripples any bike much quicker than a car just due to the masses of metal involved, a bigger gauge wire can only be a plus all things considered.
While I have not yet purchased one of this guys kits, I have been watching his Dumbo Labs for a while. From what I can see he has a wide range of products that all seem to be first rate. Matter of fact, he is someone I've been meaning to ask to link to my page. And as you know I am pretty particular :thumbup: ( or should I say peculiar :lol: :lol: :lol: )

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Ducati,making mechanics out of riders since 1946
There's no problem so bad that a little fixing can't make it worse! : )
If it ain't broke keep fixin it till it is
88 750
90 906
92 907ie


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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:21 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:00 am
Posts: 5255
Location: southern Germany
model: 750 Paso
year: 1987
higgy,

running 25m² wires on a bikes starter is like mounting tires that are good for over 300km/h on your Paso. The only thing it will do is help your conscience. If it were about cables that are 5m and + long, case would be different but it`s 1,5m and the grounds 25cm as far as I remember.
The main issue is the quality of the wires and their connections. I know three bikes (mine, a Cagiva 900ie and a 750 Lucky) that run the identical setup for years with no problems ever. We all changed wiring years back, all to good quality 10mm² OFC cable with goldened brass ring connectors (they are 6,4 & 8,4mm hole btw). The connectors were properly crimped, the cables tips then soldered. The cables got a strain relief and were covered with heat shrinked tube. Contacts were cleaned and dielectic grease was used after having finished. I bet swapping to thicker wiring won`t make a further improvement on these bikes.
Total material cost $20. $50 if I count also the crimping pliers.

G.


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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:37 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:50 pm
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Location: Hilltown,Pennsylvania
model: 906 Paso
year: 1990
I seriously doubt it could be done for 50 Dollars now, But no matter I have no issue with either gauge wire as they both are capable of getting the job done :thumbup:
Quote:
25m² wires

?????
4 gauge is 19mm2, Must have been a typo :cool:
8 gauge is 8mm2

_________________
Ducati,making mechanics out of riders since 1946
There's no problem so bad that a little fixing can't make it worse! : )
If it ain't broke keep fixin it till it is
88 750
90 906
92 907ie


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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:58 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:00 am
Posts: 704
Location: CNY, US
model: 750 Paso
year: 1988
Motolectric wrote:
Site will be back online tomorrow. Sorry for the snag.


It is! :)

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Just because you're not dead doesn't necessarily mean you're living, either.
1988 Paso 750 #753965
1997 Monster 750


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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:00 am
Posts: 869
Location: Easley, SC
model: 750 Paso
year: 1987
I had problems several years ago with my ST2 turning over pretty slowly and the hot upgrade at the time was to change the starter cables to thicker ones. I bought them from Powerlet and they helped out a whole lot. I haven't had any issues with my Paso, but if I did (after cleaning all of the contacts just to make sure that it wasn't an issue with corrosion) I'd upgrade the wires, too. Powerlet doesn't offer anything for the Paso, but this is the link to the ones for the ST2/ST4/916...

http://www.powerletproducts.com/shop-by ... 16/295/177

_________________
2002 Ducati 748 monoposto
1998 Ducati ST2
1996 Suzuki GSXR-1100
1994 Bimota DB2
1988 MegaPaso 916 project
1987 Ducati Paso 750
1985 Harley FXEF
2001 Ducati M900ie (wife's)
2000 Yamaha YZF-R1 (wife's)
1998 Ducati ST2 (wife's)
1994 Suzuki GSX-750R (wife's)


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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:53 pm
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Location: Taranaki, New Zealand
model: 906 Paso
year: 1989
Well,

I've definitely learnt something. Wire gauge numbers vs actual cross section references I've not ever looked up. Does the current carrying capacity of the same gauge wire vary with the no of strands, void space, manufacturing type, manufactuer?

I remember reading somewhere that the % of deformation copper undergoes can vary the conductivity due to changes in the microstructure and internal structure. Theoretically I suppose heavier gauge wire could be a more robust conductor over time/after handling as a result, but I doubt the effect would be noticeable practically for something as flexible as a electrical wire. Unless.... the twisting and tension in production is significant in terms of deformation? Are the reference tables universal and the manufacturing standardized? Or are there different lookup tables for different vendors?

For me at least, the age of the old loom, the use of OFC in the new kit and its quality connections were selling points. But the main one was that and the fact that someone has done all the hard work for me, and it's a guy I've dealt with before with a positive result.

One thing I always was no good at was electrics. If I was, I would probably have gone the DIY path mentioned above (like I do for a lot of stuff with the dukes); instead I'll pay for the labour to get someone to do it for me this time. I'd wager most of the cost is labour, and the heavier gauge is not much of a cost increment if you buy in bulk like he can. More time left over for me to do my valve adjustments :)

Point taken though. Over engineered isn't necessarily always worth it, or needed! I suppose I can't really say in this case if the thicker wire gauge is overkill.

For me, this time, for this task, it seems a good solution :)

cheers,
Mick

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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:51 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:00 am
Posts: 5255
Location: southern Germany
model: 750 Paso
year: 1987
Mick, it is a good solution.

Higgy, if you have crimping pliers you can do it for $20-30 depending where you buy the parts. 10mm² at a car stereo store cost about €1,40/m here. Ring connectors €0,60 ea. Heat shrink tube 9,6mm or bigger ca €3/m. If you make 2 seperate ground wires you`ll need 2m of cable in total (get 2,5m to be sure) and 8 ring connectors.

Quote:
Quote:
25m² wires

?????
4 gauge is 19mm2, Must have been a typo
8 gauge is 8mm2


I looked this up here
http://www.conelek.org/Umrechnung_AWG_i ... uerschnitt
May be a mistake there though. According to other pages 10mm² corresponds to AWG7 and 4 to 21mm².

G.


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 Post subject: Re: New cure for hard to start Paso bikes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:05 am 
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Location: SF Bay Area
model: 900 SS
year: 1995
paso750 wrote:
Mick, it is a good solution.

Higgy, if you have crimping pliers you can do it for $20-30 depending where you buy the parts.

G.


I am working up an overview to some of the points brought up in earlier posts but a quickie here is . . .

that you cannot properly crimp any wire gauge larger than about 10 GA with normal handheld tools. If you look at the tools available and the makers recommendations you will see that they all will stop their claims at about 10 GA. Above that size the terminals are too strong for a hand tool to get enough pressure to produce a good junction of the wire and terminal. I'm not saying you can't get it mashed down enough so you can't pull it back apart but it won't be a really good electrical termination. On a good termination the metal and wire are not just pushed against each other the metals are actually partially fused together due to the intense pressure. Over time the molecules migrate back and forth and the point where the metals start/stop is blurred.

The tool I use to ensure I get the maximum contact is a compound action swaging tool that is rated to crimp terminals in the 1 GA range which is 3 steps larger than 4 GA. It is 2 feet long and meant to be bench mounted. I actually make 2 crimps on the terminal for the maximum contact.

And I want to point out I'm not here just banging a drum for my HICAP kit but more along the line of encouraging riders to do upgrades on their bikes the right way, if you are a DIY kinda guy that's good but do it right. I hear from riders all the time where the PO did a bunch of mickey mouse wiring on the bike and now the current owner is concerned about reliability and safety.

Thanks, safe riding.

M./


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