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 Post subject: Replace your old brake lines!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:44 am 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:00 am
Posts: 5221
Location: southern Germany
model: 750 Paso
year: 1987
I thought I'd share these pictures I found on a german forum.
The first photo shows new brake hoses just like the ones used on the Paso.
The second are brake hoses removed from an 18 year old BMW K1100. The K1100 was built from '92-'96 meaning that the brake hoses of your Paso are up to 10 years older!
The inner hose has disolved. These hoses might actually still work (somehow) and show no cracks on the outside indicating no obvious aging but in worst case scenario the brakes would not work when really needed or seize once pressure was applied locking up the wheel.
If the brake fluid wasn't changed in a long time it'll probably be black or at least dark but if replaced on regular basis its colour will not necessarily indicate the inner condition of the hoses.

All I mean to say is that just like noone should still be riding on Michelin tires noone should still be using the original and 25-30 year old brake hoses. The industry recommends replacing rubber brake hoses every 8 years which probably noone does. However after decades it must be done. Rubber becomes porous over the years and even if there are no fluid leaks air humidity can get into the system weakening brake performance.
Get over the 'I don't want to spend the money. They still look ok' and get some new ones. You'll notice the differemce of fresh brake hoses specially if they are steel braided ones which btw are not only better but may cost less than original rubber ones.

Finding those pictures I just felt this should be pointed out.

G.


Attachments:
Querschnitt_neu.jpg
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Bremsschlauch BMW K1100 n 18 Jahren.jpg
Bremsschlauch BMW K1100 n 18 Jahren.jpg [ 180.06 KiB | Viewed 3531 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Replace your old brake lines!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:51 am 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:13 am
Posts: 610
Location: Scotland
model: 907 I.E.
year: 1994
Thanks for showing us these. The original brake hoses on my bike have all been replaced with braided steel but I must get round to changing the clutch line as well. Not so much of a safety issue at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Replace your old brake lines!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:16 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:00 am
Posts: 699
Location: CNY, US
model: 750 Paso
year: 1988
Wow. That's disgusting. Not surprising, but still. eeeww

I replaced all my brake (rears, too) and clutch lines with braided steel long ago, and I've always contended that this is my favorite, easiest, best bang-for-the-buck, go-fast upgrade possible. I consider good brakes a go-fast necessity; you see so many people doing things to uncork the engine, find more horsepower, more speed ... but ya still need to be able to stop.

On my Paso, on the front, I ditched the three-brake-line set up for two, attaching both to the master cylinder with a double banjo bolt. In general, the feel is vastly improved, but even better is the confidence that it's one less possible point of failure.

I've found direct replacements for some of the lines from various manufacturers, but some, like Spiegler, will make you lines customized to your specs for no extra charge (at least, they used to). Line length, color, and fitting size, type and respective attitude. I had a clutch line made for my Monster that works perfect with the clip-ons I have now, and it can basically only go on one way due to how the fitting are oriented. Really handy!

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Just because you're not dead doesn't necessarily mean you're living, either.
1988 Paso 750 #753965
1997 Monster 750


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 Post subject: Re: Replace your old brake lines!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:56 am
Posts: 21
Location: Belgium
model: 750 Paso
year: 1986
Hello Paso750 and fellow Paso-freaks,

Very good point to mention this. Old brake lines are neglected very often and that’s dangerous. However, I would recommend taking it much further than only replacing the brake lines and go for a full overhaul of your brake system instead. I did this a few months ago on my 1986 Paso 750 when I fully serviced the bike after having neglected it for a few years. I’ll write some reports soon on the other works that have been done.
Here are my experiences with the brakes, which might be helpful for people planning to do the same. It took me quite some time to find all the right parts as not everything from the parts catalogue is available anymore, but it was certainly worth the effort.

1.) Brake calipers
- also the seals in the brake calipers get old and cracked and need to be replaced
- pistons can be damaged due to corrosion. I experienced this when I took apart my brake calipers. On one piston a bit of the coating was damaged, causing the seal not to seal properly anymore. Luckily, I had a replacement piston in perfect condition.
- Removing the bolts which hold together the two caliper halves can be a pain in the arse as galvanic corrosion causes them to get severely stuck in the aluminium housings. I had them removed by an overhaul company as they have the proper tools for this.
- the Brembo gasket replacement sets can be easily ordered (I ordered mine via Stein-Dinse). Check the parts catalogue for the right article number. No problem for the front calipers, as those sets fully fit. For the rear caliper there’s the problem that there is no dedicated replacement set available anymore. Therefore, I used a set for the front brakes and re-used the four original 8 mm bolts which were still in good condition. The front calipers are assembled with two 10 mm bolts, which are in the replacement set. On top of that the rear caliper contains two small o-rings instead of only one in the front calipers. This second o-ring is not included in the replacement set. I mounted an EPDM70 o-ring (= ethylene propylene rubber, which is resistant against DOT 4 and DOT 3 brake fluids) with measurements (Inner diameter ring x diameter o-ring material itself) 6,75 mm x 1,78 mm.
- I thoroughly cleaned the calipers and pistons, before mounting the fresh seals following the instructions
- re-assembly of the calipers halves: I put a bit of aluminium anti-seize on the bolts before tightening them with the right torque.

2.) Brake lines
- As a replacement for the original brake lines I picked stainless steel HEL Performance brake lines in black. They have two different sets in their product line for our Paso’s. I took ‘HBF0956’ as optically those come relatively close to the original ones (Further I also replaced the clutch line with the HBC0956)
- The new brake lines are made by your local HEL dealer. Mine (Sparks-online in Echt, the Netherlands) first made them according to measurements they have in their computer. Unfortunately, some of the brake lines turned out to be a bit too long. I then visited Sparks’ workshop and took the original brake lines with me. The very next day the brake lines were adapted to the right length. Very good service of Ronald from Sparks-online. I’ll certainly go back to him for future projects.

3.) Front master pump
- Gasket replacement sets can be bought and replaced easily
- The set is being held in the pump housing with an external circlip, making replacement easy. The clutch master cylinder is quite a different story! There’s no circlip there, but a sort of hemispherical steel ring which must be punched into the housing to keep the piston and its seal in their position. Really a monstrous construction if you don’t have the proper tools for this. I tried it without them, but I failed. So, I had to sacrifice a brand new gasket replacement set in order to find out it’s better to go to a Brembo specialist to have them replace the piston and seal.

4.) Rear master pump
- Another good reason for going for a full overhaul of your brake system. See the rubber o-ring in the masterpump housing being cracked after many years (see pictures below)
- Original replacement master pumps (PS 12) are not available anymore, but I found a very good alternative for a reasonable price (see the PS 11 on this page: https://www.ducatipaddy.com/page29.html )

5.) Brake discs
- The inner diameters of the brake discs are galvanized or nickel plated (??). After many years this ‘golden look’ is gone and rust is all that remains. I looked for a company, which could redo the plating for me, but I didn’t find anyone. For this reason, I decided to clean the discs and paint the inner diameter with black heat resistant paint which I still had from repainting my mufflers. Not original, but it looks tidy again.
- the mounting bolts for the brake discs are available via your Ducati dealer


If anyone needs more detailed info about availability of certain parts then send me a PM. I documented everything and I’m happy to help in keeping our Paso’s on the road.


Attachments:
File comment: Cracked seal on rear master cylinder
DSCN1864.JPG
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File comment: Rust all over the place
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DSCN1673 - small.jpg [ 142.62 KiB | Viewed 3139 times ]
File comment: Same with the front brakes
DSCN1710 - small.jpg
DSCN1710 - small.jpg [ 149.95 KiB | Viewed 3139 times ]


Last edited by Ronald on Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Replace your old brake lines!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:56 am
Posts: 21
Location: Belgium
model: 750 Paso
year: 1986
Some more pictures.


Attachments:
File comment: Front master cylinder during overhaul
DSCN2238 - small.jpg
DSCN2238 - small.jpg [ 91.69 KiB | Viewed 3139 times ]
File comment: Front brake calipers after replacing the seals
DSCN2188 - small.jpg
DSCN2188 - small.jpg [ 228.13 KiB | Viewed 3139 times ]
File comment: Front brake caliper before overhaul
DSCN2148 - small.jpg
DSCN2148 - small.jpg [ 79.71 KiB | Viewed 3139 times ]


Last edited by Ronald on Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Replace your old brake lines!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:56 am
Posts: 21
Location: Belgium
model: 750 Paso
year: 1986
And some more


Attachments:
File comment: Front wheel after brake overhaul (and paint job)
DSCN2391 - small.jpg
DSCN2391 - small.jpg [ 216.5 KiB | Viewed 3139 times ]
DSCN2251 - small.jpg
DSCN2251 - small.jpg [ 70.77 KiB | Viewed 3139 times ]
File comment: This is what the discs originally looked like
Ducati 750 Paso - brakes.png
Ducati 750 Paso - brakes.png [ 527.03 KiB | Viewed 3139 times ]


Last edited by Ronald on Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Replace your old brake lines!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:56 am
Posts: 21
Location: Belgium
model: 750 Paso
year: 1986
Picture of the refitted front wheel with overhauled brake calipers, new brake line and repainted brake discs (inner diameter only of course).


Attachments:
DSCN2661 - small.jpg
DSCN2661 - small.jpg [ 182.31 KiB | Viewed 3139 times ]


Last edited by Ronald on Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Replace your old brake lines!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:33 pm
Posts: 254
Location: San Francisco Bay, California USA
model: 750 Paso
year: 1987
Thank you for Ronald for the really helpful/informative posts! Great going! :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Replace your old brake lines!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:36 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:56 am
Posts: 21
Location: Belgium
model: 750 Paso
year: 1986
Hi Randt,

Thanks!
I got so much info from this fantastic forum over the years and now by uploading my own experiences I hope to contribute and help others too :)

Best regards,

Ronald


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 Post subject: Re: Replace your old brake lines!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:56 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:00 am
Posts: 699
Location: CNY, US
model: 750 Paso
year: 1988
I like the black treatment given to the brake rotors too. Good idea - looks sharp!

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Just because you're not dead doesn't necessarily mean you're living, either.
1988 Paso 750 #753965
1997 Monster 750


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