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 Post subject: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:36 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:21 am
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Location: Belgium
model: 750 Paso
year: 1989
Hey Ducatisti!!

Sitting at home (Corona etc.) I was looking at a very nice YouTube series made by Andy's (Aussie) regarding a complete restauration of his 900 SS (1996 I believe). :thumbup: :thumbup:
Especially since this is an aircooled 2-valve engine and thus similar to the one used in the Paso 750.
At the end he is fitting a clutch modification made by a famous Ducati tuner (in Europe that is), VandenBiggelaar): https://youtu.be/aPCNJO6aXTc

This made me look at my own clutch parts which is still not rebuild.
Question: where can I find instructions how to mount my clutch?
The original Ducati Paso 750 Workshop manual is super superficial.
I have a Haynes manual - 2 valve twins '91-'05, but those are not the same as the 750 Paso's.
I have to admit I didn't look it up in the 906 Workshop manual assuming it would be similar to that of the 750.

I have bought a brand new Adige DU-81 clutch kit (steel plates & friction plates).
The friction plates are not the problem for me but the steel plates are: in the Adige kit I see 2 steel plates that are marginally different (I see that they are both marked with a D, opposite of the point).

Also the clutch drum and the clutch pressure plate (both aluminium) are marked and I have no idea how they should line up - incl. the steel plates.

So, before making a lot of pictures of all the old and new parts, my question is: is there somewhere a clear instruction how to mount these clutch parts (in particular the correct order)?
I couldn't find anything with the "search"function.

Besides, in the manual I see that the clutch friction plates should be at least 3,3mm ….. mine were 2,8mm.
So assuming they were worn out I bought this set Adige DU-81 which had a thickness of ……… 2,9mm :banghead: :banghead:
Any idea what the thickness should really be?
A big Ducati dealer told me that in those days Adige was the original clutch plate supplier, so I'm a bit lost on the thickness issue (I think I bought a new clutch set for xxxxx).

I hope you can help me on the clutch issue.

Frank (in lock down, with sunny cloudless weather :wacko: )

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Suzuki SV1000S - 2008
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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:03 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Location: Manchester, England.
model: 907 I.E.
year: 1992
Here is something from 2005 that might help you and once you have sussed it out have a look at the second thread about a small modification.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=412&hilit=750+clutch+plate

http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/sho ... Clutch-Mod

:thumbup: Stay Safe :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:46 am 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:35 am
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Location: Newzealand
model: 906 Paso
year: 1990
The quite clutch mod is not aplicable to the clutches with the slave cylinder in the clutch cover, the different set up (from the clutches with the slave cylinder on the other side of the motor ...by the sprocket ) is sorta self dampening and thusly dosen't have the embarasingly loud rattle . I thing this clutch is only on 750 & 906 paso's and 907's have the later clutch......and , no the later clutch cant be retro fitted as the early paso gearbox input shaft doesnt have the hole right thru for the later clutch push rod......dunno why youd want to as the early clutch is well up to the job ,if well maintained, and doesnt rattle like a demented school boy with half a bucket full of marbles. The older clutches ,in my experiance , are a bit fiddlier to get right , mostly getting them bled properly , and the slave piston assy aint all that robust ,however the later type of piston assy can be easily modded to fit (if your a bit mechanical )description of which is in the FAQ's . If your right in there it might pay to check the condition of the 2 seals , they are both easy to get at and get out , and they are not expensive , as long as you dont buy genuine ones , get them from a engineering supply shop , both are standard sizes . Any hint of leakage is to much as the oil mist will find its way to the clutch plates and form a sticky black goo ( even on your newly fitted plates ) that causes the clutch to become grabby, and drag at the traffic lights and makes neutral hard to find (3 of the more common compliants )
Owning a Paso is like having a naughty kid , a hard slog but once sorted is a pleasure to have around :-). :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:21 am
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Location: Belgium
model: 750 Paso
year: 1989
Hi Englischstiv & Mc tool,

Thanks for your response, I was afraid no one would respond. :huh:

As for the modification: it is correct, the clutch modification is only necessary for Ducatis with an air-cooled clutch whose "slave" is on the left side of the engine block.
When I watched the YouTube of "Andy's" I wanted to take a look at my clutch to see the differences between these 2 clutches (and since mine has not been assembled yet, it made this easy).

Basically: I have 3 (related) clutch issues/questions.
1) what is the correct thickness of a new clutch friction plate of a Paso 750 (2.9mm / 3.3mm) ???
2) what is the correct order of the (steel) plates?
3) is there a specific position (rotation) of the markings on the steel clutch plates, clutch drum & clutch pressure plate?

2) is, I think, the most difficult for me.
The "Workshop manual" says to assemble them in the correct order and only mentions that the last (- one sided friction -) plate should be mounted with the bold/smooth side facing outward.
In my clutch (the old parts) there are 2 concave (very slightly concave) steel plates, 2 thick steel plates (2mm) and 3 thin steel plates (1.5mm).
The new "Adige DU-81" set consists also from 2 concave (even more slightly, or should I say, hardly concave), 2 thick and 3 thin steel plates, BUT ..... the old concave plates were mounted like a dish-on-a-table when you see the marking (dot) but the 2 new concave plates would be mounted like a upside-down-dish-on-a-table when you see the markings (letter "D"). :banghead:
So basically: how (and where) should the concave plates be mounted and does it matter where the thick and where the thin plates should be placed (order)?

Can anyone still follow me? :wacko:

1) with regard to the thickness: the "750 workshop manual" says min. 3.3mm but in the parts list the 750 Paso & 906 Paso have the same pn and in the "906 workshop manual it says min. 2.8mm ….. :wacko:
So, I assume it's 2.9mm like the new plates from the "Adige DU-81" set I bought. :idea:
Nevertheless, if someone knows it is not so, let us know! :!:

3) I see markings on the clutch pressure plate (a "I") and the clutch hub (a small hole in the middle of the hub), I assume (again :-P ) that the hole and the "I" should be mounted right across from each other, since only then the holes and the aluminium protrusions (sorry, couldn't find a correct name for them) are perfectly centered.
The only remaining issue regarding positioning (rotation) is: where should the recess of the steel clutch plates point to ….. :smoke:
Or is the positioning of the recess of the steel plates a non-issue (I hope)?

Seems all very simple but unfortunately no cross section drawings in the manuals …. :,(

Hope we can get this item once and for all cleared since in the thread, which Englishstiv kindly pointed out to me, I have seen almost every possible way how to mount them. :thumbup:

Regards, :beer:

Frank


Attachments:
Ducati Paso 750 - clutch pressure plate - 786x786.jpg
Ducati Paso 750 - clutch pressure plate - 786x786.jpg [ 349.97 KiB | Viewed 1393 times ]
Ducati Paso 750 - clutch hub - 786x786.jpg
Ducati Paso 750 - clutch hub - 786x786.jpg [ 259.11 KiB | Viewed 1393 times ]

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Suzuki SV1000S - 2008
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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 10:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:21 am
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Location: Belgium
model: 750 Paso
year: 1989
Hey everyone,

After sending some emails to Surflex and Adige/Adler (the 2 main clutch plate suppliers of the Paso) and Googling some more, I found the following cross section drawing (Surflex S1448).

This shows, in my view, clearly and correctly the positions of and the way how to mount the clutch steel/friction plates in the Paso 750/906.
So convex 1st and last. :!:
The strangest thing for me is that both suppliers do not mention anything about the differences in thickness of the steel plates (3 pcs. of 1.5mm & 2 pcs. of 2.0mm) but for me that is of minor importance.
I assume (there I go again ;) ) that these differences in thickness are for making the stack thickness of the clutch plates appropriate and that the precise placement/position of these steel plates is of secondary importance.

Gerhard, I will sent you a PDF (better quality) in an email of this Surflex S1448 kit.
So Gerhard, could you be so kind to put the documentation away in the right place (as you always do dutifully :thumbup: )?

Again perhaps unnecessarily: there are many clutch kits for the Paso750/906 and this drawing of course applies to all kits, not just the Surflex. :banghead:

If I would receive further information from (Adler/Adige) I will keep you informed.

Still I do not understand why in the original Paso 750 workshop manual the min. thickness of the friction clutch plate is 3.3mm but I assume that in the past this was applicable for the Pantah 500/600/650 and in the hurry (hey, it was Ducati at it's most vulnerable period in it's history) this is overlooked and later in the Paso 906 workshop manual been adjusted to 2.8mm.

Well, for me that leaves the position (rotation) of the steel plates with their recess/cutout.
To be honest, I think it's it is hardly relevant and for me I mount them directly opposite the hole in the hub (so where in the hub there is a mark with a dot).

If there is anyone who wants to comment on this clutch plate thread, feel free. :beer:

I hope this shines some light in the darkness (clutch/Covid19)!

Frank


Attachments:
Surflex - Ducati Paso 750 - S 1448 small 2.jpg
Surflex - Ducati Paso 750 - S 1448 small 2.jpg [ 324.89 KiB | Viewed 1368 times ]
File comment: cross section drawing clutch plate position 750/906
Surflex - Ducati Paso 750 - S 1448 small 1.jpg
Surflex - Ducati Paso 750 - S 1448 small 1.jpg [ 283.49 KiB | Viewed 1368 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 9:22 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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Not sure what I was thinking there with that clutch mod when I added that link even though I answered it about the 750 for a 750 I had it in my head you where working with a 906. Apologies for the curve ball and thanks Mc Tool for digging me out of that one :evil: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 9:36 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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model: 906 Paso
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Im pretty sure at least one of the thick plates goes on 1st so you dont have friction material against the ally pressure plate. I recall one of my ducatis had 2 steel plates fitted together......think it was the paso. I also think that the clutch suppliers started making a one for all kits, which didnt make things any clearer

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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 12:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:21 am
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Location: Belgium
model: 750 Paso
year: 1989
Hi Englishstiv & Mc Tool,

No E, I'm happy that you did give me that thread, made once more clear that there are a lot of ideas how-to but not 1 clear answer to the question: how to correctly mount the clutch plates in a Paso (more like: tick a pick).

In the end I managed to find the final (does such a thing actually exist for a Ducati? :lol: ) mounting method.

What also helped was the fact that what surflex described/drew in it's overview did not correspond with the clutch construction of the Paso and also a loose spring, which according the Surflex drawing should be present (so a convex one with both small inner and outer diameter with no "teeth") I have never saw that in a clutch set of a Paso (750/906).
Only after they told me to look at the drawing of their S1448 kit it was clear to me.

So, happy to have solved it.
Just crazy that in the original workshop manual this is not described/pictured in detail (just: "in the correct order" :banghead: ).
Also the Haynes manual didn't mention this in detail (although they were more focussed on the later versions with the clutch slave on the left side).
Well, I printed the drawing and have put it in the workshop manual with adhesive tape.

Question: the aluminium clutch pressure plate (you know the one with the 6 "pillars"), do they break easily?
I ask this since I saw it is not available anymore and everything else of the Paso clutch is made of steel, so those will not easily wear out and I can get a NOS aluminium clutch pressure plate for 70 euros (about 75 USD).

Guys, thanks anyway for your respons!!!
Really appreciated (forgive me my not always correct usage of the English language, although I watch the BBC news program every night, but unfortunately there is no mention of motorcycle parts :lol: ).

Stay healthy and have some fun!

Frank

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Ducati Paso 750 - 1989
Suzuki SV1000S - 2008
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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:42 pm 
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paso grand pooh-bah
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model: 906 Paso
year: 1990
They dont handle abuse well , they are usually broken when someone uses them as lever point whilst trying to remove clutch nut. So if you dont do nothing dumb they dont break . Might give a little thought to preserving the threads in them as the spring tension puts a bit of load on the threads while your doing them up

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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 1:02 pm 
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year: 1987
Usually I stay away from clutch disc order discussions as imho there’s no ‘right’ order as long as the spring disc goes in first and the onesided friction disc is last. Where the second spring disc sits and if it’s reversed or not has no impact on the stack height or the function of the clutch. (My opinion)

I never understood the Surflex catalog for multiple reasons. If you compare the parts numbers in the P750 and 750S parts catalog from clutch basket, core, discs to springs all parts on both have identical part numbers. However the 750 Sport parts catalog mentions 2 steel disc thicknesses. There’re part numbers for 1,5 and 2mm steel discs but the 2mm has no number and does not appear in the exploded parts overview.

The 750S parts catalog lists #19020021A for the complete clutch disc pack, there’s nothing mentioned for the P750. If you check Stein Dinse you find that #19020021A (and 066516690) has become #19020022A which is supposed to fit not only the Sport and Paso but also the 907IE (which seems odd but that’s a different story).

Still Surflex lists different clutch kits. For the Sport only the sintered S 1448 and for the Paso the organic compound S 2076 and the sintered S 1686. (based on the catalogs available on their website)

In the past I’ve bought original car parts from an Audi dealership that had a completely revised design so I can accept that for the P750 there’s a clutch kit with a different setup than what came from factory.

This is the first time I see the S1448 kit listed also for the P750. I find it interesting that now the Sport isn’t listed anymore. Makes you wonder which kit is now the ‘correct’ one for it.

The two pictures posted above don’t match. In the technical drawing the spring discs are on each end of the pack. In the picture above it the second disc is in the middle which is actually the same as shown in the P750 parts catalog. The picture on the bottom of this post shows the S 1448 in reversed order while pictures of other clutch sets are correct… :truck: Surflex's info is not very consistent.

As for the 1,5 and 2mm steel discs in the ADIGE kit I agree that this is probably just a cost measure, a kind of modular system to realize different stack heights by combining them.

Several years ago I had posted this picture regarding the #19020022A clutch kit. It’s probably what you had been looking for.
download/file.php?mode=view&id=665

Purely hypothetical, if the friction discs were made of Aluminium not steel and were therefore softer than the spring discs they could slightly warp under pressure. In which case it could make sense to position the 2mm steel discs behind them. So it would be spring disc/friction disc/2mm steel disc/friction disc/1,5mm steel disc etc. But that probably doesn’t happen and if, it would be so minimal that you wouldn’t notice it.

Did you get a reply to your email to Adige?

G.


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Unbenannt-1.jpg [ 83.27 KiB | Viewed 1292 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 3:26 pm 
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Location: Belgium
model: 750 Paso
year: 1989
Adige/Adler is taken over 6 weeks ago they have to fire half of their staff on behalf of the new owner. They had liquidity problems and have now been taken over by an Indian automotive supplier "Endurance".
:,( So I don't think they're going to answer me anytime soon ...

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Suzuki SV1000S - 2008
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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 3:46 pm 
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model: 750 Paso
year: 1987
that doesn't sound good.


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 Post subject: Re: Mounting a new clutch plates set (Adige DU-81) .....
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 2:54 pm 
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Location: Italy
model: 750 Paso
year: 1990
I follow with interest....... :thumbup:

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