Starting problem

[higgy]

So, better to have at 9mm for Dyna coils, Higgy?

In order to take advantage of the higher output capability of the Dyna coil you must increase the gap to the plugs maximum range. I think once you do that all will be OK. Make sure the side electrode is square with the center electrode and extends to the edge of the center electrode,sometimes it takes a little fiddling to get it proper.

As far as the plug wires go direction does not matter as long as they make good contact at both ends. Polarity of the coils matters,check it when you get home.

Check out the manufacturer's website to find the maximum range of the plugs you have installed. Going beyond their recommended range of gap changes the heat range of the plug, not something you want to do with a Ducati.


and.....
have a safe trip Warwick

[romus]

I have also put on Dyno coils at the same time...

And now the correct coil goes to correct cylinder?

Hah, yes had them crossed over - now correct - front coil to horizontal front cylinder, side coil to virtical rear cylinder.

[higgy]

So you got it running now?

[romus]

So you got it running now?

Nope, even though I thought the crossed coil wires must have been it .

Also popped in two new spark plugs which were the NGKdPr8ea-9 which are preset to 0.9mm.

But I will tomorrow get some Champion RA6HC and try them.

Also I noted that the Irridium DPR8EIX-9 come preset at 0.9mm. That is all the info I could find on Gap range.

So do I presume 0.9 the max and suitable for Dyna coils?

Haven't done a polar test on the coils yest, but not hopeful because I did connect the red wires to the + post since Dyna coils have a + post marked. Should be right, aye?

Also will check the choke cable on the carb still connected right. Also can go over the carb but last I checked fuel was flowing when turned accelerator.

??????????

[higgy]

OK
But it is cranking over ?

I don't see that changing to a different plug should matter assuming there is nothing wrong with any of the plugs

Do you have 12 volts at the + side of the coil with the ignition on ?

If no you have a problem somewhere between the battery and the coil. Try running a fused wire directly to the coil bypassing everything If it then fires you need to sort out your switches and wiring.

If yes there is 12volts at the coil and it does not fire you have a problem between the ECU and the coil.
Check all the wires and connectors between them

If all this is OK you may have fried the ECU


FYI I have the iridiums in both bikes at the moment. I remember having to open them up as bit and straightening the electrode to get rid of a slight miss

[romus]

OK
But it is cranking over ?

Yes :-)

I don't see that changing to a different plug should matter assuming there is nothing wrong with any of the plugs

Do you have 12 volts at the + side of the coil with the ignition on ?

11.8

also I just checked the carbs and the fuel does flow when I turn the accelerator.

If no you have a problem somewhere between the battery and the coil. Try running a fused wire directly to the coil bypassing everything If it then fires you need to sort out your switches and wiring.

Not this one

If yes there is 12volts at the coil and it does not fire you have a problem between the ECU and the coil.
Check all the wires and connectors between them

There are some wires that come from the front of the alternator cover, I uncovered the first connection and found it was really bad. One wire broken the other almost broken. They are two yellow wires.
Maybe this is it? Possible? Does this power the electrical system?

In the wiring diagram these wires go from the alternator to the Regulator. Actually there is a red wire also in the wiring diagram, but on the bike I can see it was cut.

If all this is OK you may have fried the ECU

Hope not, ouch.

FYI I have the iridiums in both bikes at the moment. I remember having to open them up as bit and straightening the electrode to get rid of a slight miss

I'll get some iridiums and do the same.

[higgy]

11.8

also I just checked the carbs and the fuel does flow when I turn the accelerator.

anything over 10 should be enough. What do you have a the battery?

There are some wires that come from the front of the alternator cover, I uncovered the first connection and found it was really bad. One wire broken the other almost broken. They are two yellow wires.
Maybe this is it? Possible? Does this power the electrical system?

yes,that is the output and input to and from the alternator. Fix them well. Then try it again,also recheck the voltage at the coils once you fix it and charge up that battery You may also find other connections needing attention if those three are in bad shape. Like along the way to the regulator and on the way to the ECM

could be the whole issue if you are lucky/unlucky depending on how you want to look at it

[paso750]

guys you freak me out. Stop poking in the dark, do it with a system. This topic is going on for two months. Finding the problem shouldn´t cost more than a weekend. The Pantah is not a complicated engine. Finding a problem on a 907ie can be for sure more complicated.

Warwick, stop changing things. You´re making it more complicated to find the problem, you may even create new ones and please don`t constantly edit your posts, just post again. I always have to read your old posts again to see that there were things changed or added.

As for every gasoline engine that won´t start there are three very basic main possible issues: no cranking, no fuel or no spark.
We learned it does crank.
If you disconnect the fuel line to the carb and turn the ignition on you`ll see if the fuel pump squirts fuel through the line. If it does and not only a few drops things are fine. The carb could still be an issue but if after some cranking the spark plugs are wet that´s fine, too. If the bike stood for months or years old fuel can be an issue (not in your case).
Spark. If there´s none trace backwards. Check the spark plugs, the plug wires (an analog multimeter should basically show a short), measure the coils. Unless you modify things here there`s no need to check polarity or if the coils/cylinders were connected reversed.
If as higgy states at least 10V arrive at your coils they should fire. Your battery should be fully charged of course.
If all that shows no result measure the output of the pick-ups. (check pick-up/flywheel clearance and pick up bracket marks - if nothing was done to these parts this is not necessary)
If this is also all fine I`d have the Marelli Digiplex tested somewhere.

Of course there can be more which brings me back to my last unanswered question. What were the things you did on (or should I say to) the bike after the last time the engine still worked ?
Assuming all the above is ok this`ll only leave incorrect ignition timing which could come from attempts to adjust it, incorrect belt change or replacing the belt pulleys. Did you do any of this ?
(A clogged fuel return line will only show effect after some riding, not when starting a cold engine. Stuck valves on both cylinders are imho unrealistic).

The spark plugs are not your issue. They will either fire or not. If they work well with the ignition system is another story, but for the engine starting or not starting that`s irrelevant (Iridium NGKs didn´t work at all on my 750, the 906 or 907ie may handle them better).
Btw. the RA6HC are for the 750 you`ll need the RA8HC.

There`s no need to fiddle with your wiring now unless you changed it after your last ride or if it was damaged by your little fire mishap. If you want to know if your alternator works measure the voltage over your battery with engine off and then start it. Voltage should go up for 2 volts or so. If there`s no change it`s no good sign.
Please don´t get me wrong. Of course broken wires need to be fixed, filters cleaned or replaced etc but that´s not direct part of tracing the issue.

I hope I didn´t piss off anyone. I just feel a bit grumpy these last days, sorry.

G.

[higgy]

G, I think I'm a bad influence

[romus]

Got it. After fixing broken alternator wires, it fired up, smoked a bit, was still coughing and bogged. I dropped back in the NGKs set at .6mm in case the 0.9mm ones i had in were too wide. It started again, better this time, cleared a bit of smoke and then idled like a beauty.

...G, I think I'm a bad influence ..

Actually you gave me just the right the direction I needed at the point I was at.

Thanks heaps.

[romus]

guys you freak me out. Stop poking in the dark, do it with a system. This topic is going on for two months. Finding the problem shouldn´t cost more than a weekend. The Pantah is not a complicated engine. Finding a problem on a 907ie can be for sure more complicated.

It is running now, once I fixed the broken alternator wires.

Nah, Higgy had it right, giving me the right problem solving strategy. Two months, because I was overseas for one month and had two weeks break after a fire, so in reality it took two weeks to fix - yeah, well, I'm on a learning curve, aye.

Warwick, stop changing things. You´re making it more complicated to find the problem, you may even create new ones

Sure, I a made a new problem while putting in new coils, but that is a separate system form the starter motor-cranking question, aye. Since it was a separate system then I it didn't make it more complicated to find the problem.

starter motor-cranking question was fixed when I replaced the Solenoid.

Okay, then maybe I should have started a new post for "coil related not starting".

and please don`t constantly edit your posts, just post again. I always have to read your old posts again to see that there were things changed or added.

Okay, but what about the top/first post. I thought it was helpful if I edit the top post like a summary? That makes it easier for readers to see if what's below would be of interest, instead of searching so much.

As for every gasoline engine that won´t start there are three very basic main possible issues: no cranking, no fuel or no spark.
We learned it does crank.

Yep, it cranked once I put in a new solenoid

So, now onto the coil start system...

If you disconnect the fuel line to the carb and turn the ignition on you`ll see if the fuel pump squirts fuel through the line. If it does and not only a few drops things are fine. The carb could still be an issue but if after some cranking the spark plugs are wet that´s fine, too. If the bike stood for months or years old fuel can be an issue (not in your case).

Yes, I get understand that. I did that and double checked the carb wasn't blocked by checking the fuel was squirting through into the venturies.

Spark. If there´s none trace backwards. Check the spark plugs, the plug wires (an analog multimeter should basically show a short), measure the coils. Unless you modify things here there`s no need to check polarity or if the coils/cylinders were connected reversed.

Yeah, I had reversed the coil wires - dumb

If as higgy states at least 10V arrive at your coils they should fire. Your battery should be fully charged of course.

yes more than 10 volts, but didn't fire, so Higgy said check the wires back from coils to battery. Voila, found broken wire.

If all that shows no result measure the output of the pick-ups. (check pick-up/flywheel clearance and pick up bracket marks - if nothing was done to these parts this is not necessary)
If this is also all fine I`d have the Marelli Digiplex tested somewhere.

Luckily I didn't need to as when checking wires back from the coil and found a broken wire from the ones out of the alternator. The fire had melted a bit the tape where there was a connection and I had wiggled it wondering if I needed to unwrap the partly melted tape. I think in doing that I must have broken loose the last strands of wire holding the connection. When I uncovered it one wire was half gone at the connection and the other was broken.

Of course there can be more which brings me back to my last unanswered question. What were the things you did on (or should I say to) the bike after the last time the engine still worked ? Assuming all the above is ok this`ll only leave incorrect ignition timing which could come from attempts to adjust it, incorrect belt change or replacing the belt pulleys. Did you do any of this ?

Only I had cleaned the starter switch.

(A clogged fuel return line will only show effect after some riding, not when starting a cold engine. Stuck valves on both cylinders are imho unrealistic).

The spark plugs are not your issue. They will either fire or not. If they work well with the ignition system is another story, but for the engine starting or not starting that`s irrelevant (Iridium NGKs didn´t work at all on my 750, the 906 or 907ie may handle them better).
Btw. the RA6HC are for the 750 you`ll need the RA8HC.

Yes, I understand. The spark plug testing and adjustment is more about fine tuning than basic starting issues.

There`s no need to fiddle with your wiring now unless you changed it after your last ride or if it was damaged by your little fire mishap.

Exactly, since fixing a wire solved the problem I conclude that the fire made a small amount of damage to a wire connection that was anyway a problem about to happen.

If you want to know if your alternator works measure the voltage over your battery with engine off and then start it. Voltage should go up for 2 volts or so. If there`s no change it`s no good sign.

Good to know.

Thanks for the explanations. I learned a lot on this learning curve.

G.[/quote]

[paso750]

apologies for yesterday. It`s a sunny morning. I`m feeling better and the first thing I read is good news

Higgy, it`s not you. It`s my projects that tango. One step forward, two steps back. In the past 2 weeks I had to remove the engine from my Vespa scoot twice and now in the easter holidays I can`t continue putting the engine back in as I`m missing a woodruff key for € 1.30. I can`t even order it as the moq is €15 so I guess I`ll have to order some gaskets or things I currently don`t need but may in future. (edit: I called a shop this morning ca. 8km from me. They were open and told me to drop by. When I arrived there I was told there were no mechanics in on saturdays and hence noone in the parts depot )

Warwick, the RA8HC may smooth the engine running a bit. As they don`t cost much I`d try. For some reasons some engines react differently on spark plugs.

Good to hear it`s running again but for me it`s still not totally clear why it didn`t start at first. The fried wires were ok at the beginning so I doubt they were the real culprit unless they were not ok from the start and the fire gave them the rest. I`d call that a coincidence. Ok, you replaced the solenoid but the bike then still didn`t fire up, right ?

Okay, but what about the top/first post. I thought it was helpful if I edit the top post like a summary? That makes it easier for readers to see if what's below would be of interest, instead of searching so much.

Good point, makes sense as long as you don`t add any details to the first post that weren`t posted in the ongoing thread. I doubt the guys following an ongoing thread on p.3 will read the first post again. For all others who stumble over it in the future it`s of course good as they don`t have to read the whole thing.

G.

[romus]

Warwick, the RA8HC may smooth the engine running a bit. As they don`t cost much I`d try. For some reasons some engines react differently on spark plugs.

will do, ordering some now

Good to hear it`s running again but for me it`s still not totally clear why it didn`t start at first. The fried wires were ok at the beginning so I doubt they were the real culprit unless they were not ok from the start and the fire gave them the rest. I`d call that a coincidence. Ok, you replaced the solenoid but the bike then still didn`t fire up, right ?

As I understand it, I had two issues:

One was a fried solenoid. The solenoid replacement fixed the no cranking problem and theoretically the bike then would start.

Then I had a fire. Apart from my concern of water down the carbs throats (took advice and cranked it with the plugs out) the only damage seemed to be some melted tape - most noticeably at a connection point to the alternator wires. I wiggled the taped area wondering, but it still seemed only to be some surface melting of the tape so at first I left it. Now, that I finally uncovered the tape I found the wire connection there were terrible, one wire was connected but only to about half the core wire. the second wire had like 1 wire thread connected. I figure, it was really bad anyway and that by wiggling it I probably made it worse. There was some blackening of the wire plastic coating, so the fire did actually create some damage and there was some soot - then my wiggling of the wire must have broken a few of the final strands holding it and the power didn't get through.

I don't even understand alternators properly, how broken alternator wires might break the electric system somehow. Those wires go to the Regulating unit no 24 on the wiring diagram. Maybe you can understand it, but anyway, after I fixed those wires it started. There were three wires from the alternator: two yellow and one red. I am talking about the two yellow wires. the red was cut at the connection point. I don't know why. the bike worked before so I have left that red wire.

[paso750]

regarding the red wire, my guess is you have an aftermarket regulator/rectifier as not all need it. See ie the description of the Electrex regulator.
https://app.box.com/s/r16ixjegwfl7aq3ybd0c

[higgy]

Just a comment in passing
I often go back and re-read a post from the beginning. Its a habit I developed from reading hundreds of pages of technical documentation. It does not always sink in the first time and as we all know language even your native language can often be ambiguous. I find myself often wondering how a point I totally missed the first time becomes so blazingly obvious at some later date. Also I often find it comes at a price I could not afford to pay

Glad to hear Romus got it going

Let us know if you go to the Champions and if they made a difference in the way your 906 runs.
One more opinion could never hurt

G, we are lucky in the US to have McMasterCarr. 99 times out of a hundred they will have it to your door the next day. Especially little odd ball parts like woodruff keys