Starting problem

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romus
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Starting problem

Post by romus »

On a few occasions lately I turn the key to start the bike and I only get a clicking sound from the under seat electrics. It is intermittent - if I wait a while and try again it can work.

Three months beforehand I had put in the Motolectric Starter Upgrade Kit and a new battery. any ideas?

Sept UPDATED all things I did in this thread to get it going:
1. Since I did the Motolectric Starter Upgrade the starting had been fantastic and when I did that I got a new battery and the connections at the battery and Starter were excellent. But, I learned later (see 9 below) that a new Motolectric upgrade can lead to a Sprag clutch failure if the Sprag clutch spring is nearly finished. :idea:
2. Since the Solenoid clicked when the starter switch was pressed then I learned the power was getting through. I checked various wire connection points, but not very well, actually (see 8 below)! :dunno:
3. I undid the starter button, sanded the points and sprayed with electric cleaner. Later, I did the same for the kill switch - good to do, but not the problem. :|
4. I learned that if the Solenoid clicks and there is no motor turnover, then it could be a defective starter motor (connections, worn brushes, etc) or burned-out main contacts in the Solenoid. So, I took the cap off the starter to learn that the brushes were okay. But anyway, I replaced the brushes and the brush holder plate from a maintenance kit (Stockers Starters) - good to do, but not the problem. :|
5. I did some multimeter testing on the Solenoid and found too much Ohms (resistance) between the main contacts (partly burned out). So, I replaced it. Now, the motor turned over - good. :) But, still the starting was intermittent, so there was another problem!?! :dunno:
6. Hmm, in this process I stupidly created a fire from a backfire up the carb throat to a rag with fuel on it - spreading to fuel I had spilt on the bike and floor. Oh, now some water had gone down the carbs. :evil: I turned the motor over with the starter and spark plugs out and changed the oil. See other post "What not to do - fire". :wacko:
7. Since I was doing all this work, I thought I would put in some new Dyna coils, but connected them to the wrong cylinder (stupid) :banghead: - corrected that. :|
8. More carefully, I re-checked the wire connections and found a really bad wire at a connection point from the alternator :idea:. Also, the wire from the Digiplex to the battery negative was dropping off at the Digiplex connection :idea: . I fixed those wire connection :thumbup: . The bike still was only starting intermittently :dunno: ! More, more , more, what now :wacko: ?
9. Sent my Digiplex in for analysis and was told it was irreparable! :shock: . So I got a replacement :thumbup: . Still intermittent starting :dunno: and NOW I notice an increasingly clear clunking noise near the back of the motor when trying to start the bike :banghead: . From research I realised that it could be to do with the Sprag clutch and I learned that a bad sprag also clutch prevents starting :idea: .
10. I replaced the Sprag clutch :thumbup: . Yep, that got it. :D Starting regularly - perfect :thumbup: :beer: . Haaaaaaaaaaaaa :-)

Thanks everyone for your help on this one. It was a big and long learning curve for me. I learned a lot about the electrics and starting components. It seems I had multiple problems. All this was hard from my knowledge level - where I had never worked on bike starting systems, so I had to work out a lot of things including finding more about logical testing procedures. But, if I can do this, anyone can, right?! :idea: Sometimes, I was ready to give up and had breaks in the work while away for work, waiting for parts, 'fire' and repairs. I made it harder for myself by putting Dyna coils on wrongly - but anyway, I kept going and now the thoroughbred is performing again - rewarding me with beautiful rides :-) and having had an electronic overhaul.

While I was at it I also finished off my job to upgrade to 17 inch wheels (I had done the back wheel, so now the front wheel is done too) :-)
Last edited by romus on Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:20 pm, edited 19 times in total.
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paso750
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Re: Starting problem

Post by paso750 »

romus, it sounds like the starter relay/solenoid. Assuming your battery is fully charged (new batteries usually aren`t) you can try two things. Put the emergency off switch to OFF position. Hit the start button and switch it to ON position while cranking. The second is to slap the starter relay with your flat hand while cranking. One of these two may help starting the bike. It`s no fix of course.
From electrical point of view there are only very few things it can be if the starter doesn`t turn. Low battery, bad contacts in the starter switch, ignition switch starting to act up, starter brushes worn or starter relay. If slapping it helps it`s definetely it.
There`s a tutorial in the downloads on how to (attempt to) fix it.

G.

edit/ here it is: http://www.box.net/shared/njqjcaortr
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Re: Starting problem

Post by Mobius »

Hi Romus. This is the exact issue I had recently which required replacing the starter motor. The armature was burned out after the brushes had worn and disintegrated.

My understanding is that cranking for long periods of time (prior to the Hicap mod, which I installed at the same time) can significantly damage the starter motor due to heat build up.

Yank the back of the starter off, and inspect the brushes and armature. I'm thinking your bushes will come out as chunks and dust. If the armature isn't damaged (and I think it most likely is) then all you'll need is some new brushes. Otherwise, Stockers Starters have the Denso starter for $109, and brush kits for $25 I think.
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romus
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Re: Starting problem

Post by romus »

paso750 wrote:romus, it sounds like the starter relay/solenoid. Assuming your battery is fully charged (new batteries usually aren`t) you can try two things. Put the emergency off switch to OFF position. Hit the start button and switch it to ON position while cranking. The second is to slap the starter relay with your flat hand while cranking. One of these two may help starting the bike. It`s no fix of course.
From electrical point of view there are only very few things it can be if the starter doesn`t turn. Low battery, bad contacts in the starter switch, ignition switch starting to act up, starter brushes worn or starter relay. If slapping it helps it`s definetely it.
There`s a tutorial in the downloads on how to (attempt to) fix it.

G.
Yes battery charged. Just checked wiring connections - seems good. Tried slapping starter relay - no difference. Lights come on so I think that means ignitions switch is okay?

No cranking when starter button pressed and kill switch off. Does this indicate Starter switch contacts? Undid starter switch bolts - not sure how to check contacts - do I just spray some electrical cleaner in there?
Last edited by romus on Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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romus
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Re: Starting problem

Post by romus »

Mobius wrote:Hi Romus. This is the exact issue I had recently which required replacing the starter motor. The armature was burned out after the brushes had worn and disintegrated.

My understanding is that cranking for long periods of time (prior to the Hicap mod, which I installed at the same time) can significantly damage the starter motor due to heat build up.

Yank the back of the starter off, and inspect the brushes and armature. I'm thinking your bushes will come out as chunks and dust. If the armature isn't damaged (and I think it most likely is) then all you'll need is some new brushes. Otherwise, Stockers Starters have the Denso starter for $109, and brush kits for $25 I think.
From other threads it looks like:
It is fiddly but possible to change the brushes (does not require side covers off or draining oil etc)

It seems harder to change the starter, but needing to drain oil and remove the left cover. Hmmm, I checked out Stockers Starters. Denso: 128000-6050 Ducati: 270.4001.1A. Not a bad price.
Last edited by romus on Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting problem

Post by Duc906 »

romus wrote:Is there any trick to getting the back of the starter off? I checked out Stockers Starters. Denso: 128000-6050 Ducati: 270.4001.1A. Not a bad price. Do you know if it is hard to swap the Denso starter?
G'day Warwick
If you want to get the back off the starter, you only have to undo the 2 phillips head screws in the back of the motor. Taking the whole starter off the engine is a PITA. It involves removing the alternator cover so that you can get at the 2 bolts, inside the engine, that hold the starter on. Gotta love them Italians.
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Re: Starting problem

Post by Tamburinifan »

It is intermittent - if I wait a while and try again it can work.
This indicates solenoid works & you +12V at starter.

My guess is brushes, armature seldom wears out but of course can happen.
If you choose to not remove alt cover,
DO MARK everything up before taking apart, lid-mid-bottom of starter & how they fit.
Risk f mental instability & really offensive languish could occur otherwise,
been there-done that...... :banghead:
Gert

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romus
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Re: Starting problem

Post by romus »

Tamburinifan wrote:
It is intermittent - if I wait a while and try again it can work.
This indicates solenoid works & you +12V at starter.

My guess is brushes, armature seldom wears out but of course can happen.
If you choose to not remove alt cover,
DO MARK everything up before taking apart, lid-mid-bottom of starter & how they fit.
Risk f mental instability & really offensive languish could occur otherwise,
been there-done that...... :banghead:
Hmm, cleaned the Starter Switch, by undoing it and taking out the push button, a bit of sandpaper on the points and electric cleaning spray. Still same problem.

So, now down to Starter. Took off that starter cap (yep, was fiddly and yep paying attention). Hmm will be hard to get back, I agree. The brushes seem okay to me. But I have ordered a repair kit and brushes from Stocker Starters. So, when that comes I will try try try to get it back together.
Last edited by romus on Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tamburinifan
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Re: Starting problem

Post by Tamburinifan »

The brushes seem okay to me.
How long are they?
Gert

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romus
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Re: Starting problem

Post by romus »

Tamburinifan wrote:
The brushes seem okay to me.
How long are they?
1.05 cm

also on the starter solenoid I found this site http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technic ... oring.html

According to this site (b) Engine won't turn over but a strong "click" is clearly heard when starter button is pressed. Possible reasons: Loose battery or solenoid terminal post connections. Defective starter motor (connections, worn brushes, etc), burned-out main contacts in solenoid.

On the last "burned-out main contacts in solenoid" point there should be between 0.5 and 2 Ohms across the solenoid main terminals. According to my reading I got 6 Ohm (Okay not 100% sure I am using the multimeter correctly) in which case the writer of the site says, "reading should be between 0.5 and 2 Ohms. Much more than this means the contacts are
burned. They may still work but that sort of resistance will tend to create excessive sparking on the contacts which will burn them a bit more, creating carbonised areas and more resistance, etc until the contacts are destroyed.

So, anyway. It looks like a possibility, so I have ordered a new solenoid at http://www.loudbikestore.com/39740011a- ... 14494.html
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Re: Starting problem

Post by higgy »

Romus,you can bypass the contacts by shorting the terminals together. I use an old screwdriver when I can't find my starter bypass switch,well actually sometimes the screwdriver is just a shorter walk :lol: :lol: :lol:
Do be careful if you use a screwdriver as there is sufficient current to weld it onto the contacts :banghead:
In which case in a state of panic you will be groping around to get a battery terminal off :drunk:
On my 906 the pigtail from the switch is always coming loose with the same symptoms, one of these days I might get around to replacing those last two terminals :beer: :beer: :beer:
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Re: Starting problem

Post by romus »

higgy wrote:Romus,you can bypass the contacts by shorting the terminals together. I use an old screwdriver when I can't find my starter bypass switch,well actually sometimes the screwdriver is just a shorter walk :lol: :lol: :lol:
Do be careful if you use a screwdriver as there is sufficient current to weld it onto the contacts :banghead:
In which case in a state of panic you will be groping around to get a battery terminal off :drunk:
On my 906 the pigtail from the switch is always coming loose with the same symptoms, one of these days I might get around to replacing those last two terminals :beer: :beer: :beer:
Hey Higgy, what part do you mean when you say, "pigtail from the switch"
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Re: Starting problem

Post by higgy »

There are 4 terminals on the solenoid. The two large battery terminals and the a two wire connector that comes from the starter button. If you need a picture let me know :thumbup:
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Re: Starting problem

Post by Mc tool »

Just a thought . You could get an assistant ( I'm sure she wont mind :) ) to hold down the starter button while you wiggle wires, and I was thinkin 'bout shorting the solenoid , just didnt want to be the 1st to say it :lol: :lol:
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Re: Starting problem

Post by higgy »

Just a thought . You could get an assistant ( I'm sure she wont mind :) ) to hold down the starter button while you wiggle wires, and I was thinkin 'bout shorting the solenoid , just didnt want to be the 1st to say it :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: P :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: U :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: S :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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There's no problem so bad that a little fixing can't make it worse! : )
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