Starting problem

discussions specific to the 906 Paso
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Finnpaso
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Re: Starting problem

Post by Finnpaso »

higgy wrote:Just a comment in passing
I often go back and re-read a post from the beginning. Its a habit I developed from reading hundreds of pages of technical documentation. It does not always sink in the first time and as we all know language even your native language can often be ambiguous. I find myself often wondering how a point I totally missed the first time becomes so blazingly obvious at some later date. :wacko: Also I often find it comes at a price I could not afford to pay :banghead:
"Shit happens" also to You, Higgy, sometimes. U HAVE to remember, that nowbody in here, in this big world cant be ALLWAYS CORRECT.... SO., You dont have to be worried, if some of us (like me!!!) speaks / writes bad/poor/simple english and cant understand allways what "they talk about"... :) I know, You suffer now alot, but i know that feeling very well and sooner or later You will be ok.... :mrgreen: (Higgy, dont take this too seriously/personally, as it is just normal and can happen also to You....) :mrgreen:
Antti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeKOh3XoXPg&NR=1
KTM 990 Adventure -08 metal dark grey
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higgy
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Re: Starting problem

Post by higgy »

"Shit happens" also to You, Higgy, sometimes. U HAVE to remember, that nowbody in here, in this big world cant be ALLWAYS CORRECT..
Every single day Antti I never said I was any different :beer: :beer:
Ducati,making mechanics out of riders since 1946
There's no problem so bad that a little fixing can't make it worse! : )
If it ain't broke keep fixin it till it is
88 750
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Finnpaso
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Re: Starting problem

Post by Finnpaso »

:thumbup: I have lived enough long time, that sometimes have to be ready to say, that: "Ok, i was in wrong". It is just normal and it also can happen to You "usa guys", no matter You have that langauage in Your deep mind... Sometimes life is going upwards and sometimes downwards.... :mrgreen:

Btw ("By The Way"), i wonder, that You have so much time to keep/stay in these web sites near allways? Dont You have anything other things to do???? You MUST have to have also some other things, like eating/drinking/shitting/sleeping... and visit workplace ???? :thumbup:

Now i go to hot Sauna and take one beer for You, Higgy :beer:
Antti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeKOh3XoXPg&NR=1
KTM 990 Adventure -08 metal dark grey
Paso 750 -89 red/metal grey
907IE -91 red/metal grey
907IE -91 red
2xST4S -02 red/metal grey
ST2 -01 red/metal grey
Volvo V70 Bi-Fuel Classic/titanium
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higgy
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Re: Starting problem

Post by higgy »

Code: Select all

Btw ("By The Way"), i wonder, that You have so much time to keep/stay in these web sites near allways?
It is the nature of my job that I have many hours of time to spend while our automation systems do the work. During these testing phases, the hardest part is staying alert, for that you need distractions. I have to be there in case something goes wrong. I have years of experience in automation and fixin things so it does not usually take a lot of time.

Was there something in particular I got wrong Antti :?:
Ducati,making mechanics out of riders since 1946
There's no problem so bad that a little fixing can't make it worse! : )
If it ain't broke keep fixin it till it is
88 750
90 906
92 907ie
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romus
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Re: Starting problem

Post by romus »

Pooh, I went to start it today, just for the beauty of it and it didn't!

Hey, ,sorry for frustrating you before for being sloppy on following correct procedures. It is just that I am truly on a learning curve, so sometimes pick up here and there what those procedures are. I think you Paso Grand Pooh bah guys are real experts as are a number of others on these forums and you must get frustrated with guys like me that sort of blunder in without knowing too much.

I am the guy near the bottom of the learning curve list that if you say check the wires between the coils and the ECU that I look at wires elsewhere (just because they are on the same side of the bike) and find a problem elsewhere, because I am slow to work out where the wires between the ECU and coils are, actually. But I am also someone who doesn't mind figuring it all out, so please be patient with me guys.


Since it didn't start today, I went to check any connections between the coils and ECU as Higgy said in the first place and found more wire issues, this time at the connection that plugs into the ECU. Sorry I lost my camera charger - if I could I would post pics.

The plastic socket that plugs into the ECU is broken a bit where the Orange, Y/G and B wires go in. It looks like someone that attached the wires before put in silicone to hold things in place. Over time that silicone is now soft and sticky - that's my guess. I pulled some of the soft stuff off and the black wire fell out!

That black wire must be completing a circuit, aye - so it's important, I expect?

From the wiring diagram, I can see the Orange goes to the Horizontal coil and the Y/G to the Vertical coil, and black wire (that fell off) to the - battery terminal.

I will look online but I suspect I won't find a new plastic connector and probably will have to solder the black to where the Y/G goes in to the socket.

Also the sensor wire from the ECU is joined half way down by the wires twisted and taped together - probably okay, but crimping wires in connectors would be better, wouldn't it?
paso750 wrote:regarding the red wire, my guess is you have an aftermarket regulator/rectifier as not all need it. See ie the description of the Electrex regulator.
https://app.box.com/s/r16ixjegwfl7aq3ybd0c
Thanks for that.
Warwick - on a learning curve and on a
Ducati Paso - Soul of a thoroughbred :P
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paso750
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Re: Starting problem

Post by paso750 »

Warwick, now you`re making me a bad conscience :) We´re all here to help so we will continue to do our best no matter what the skills are or the level of knowledge is.
But I am also someone who doesn't mind figuring it all out, so please be patient with me guys.
imho that`s the most important thing. Always have a few manuals and a wiring diagram at hand and try to understand how things work and interact. If there`s a problem try to understand where it comes from (ie electrics, mechanics, carburation) and then try to trace it systematically. If you`ve found it don´t just fix it. Try to figure out the cause or the issue may return. I guess all of us start looking close and wiggling wires first. After that continue step by step eliminating all possible causes. (possibly backwards from the carb, to fuel pump to filter to tank or spark plug to plug cable to coils etc. etc.)
If one works often on vehicles it´s an automatic process, if one doesn`t it may not be bad to create something like a checklist or flowchart that will help to find the route to the actual problem. There is no "correct" procedure btw.. The only thing one should not do is randomly replace parts hoping that the faulty may be among them. I met many guys who do it like this. That can become really expensive and won´t take one far if the issue is a bad or broken connection.
That black wire must be completing a circuit, aye - so it's important, I expect?
yes it is. On vehicles red wires are generally 12V, orange is usually also 12V but often switched (ie only if ignition is on or by a relay), black is a ground connection (brown is also often used for that). All other colours or colour codes have to be identified by the wiring diagrams.
I will look online but I suspect I won't find a new plastic connector and probably will have to solder the black to where the Y/G goes in to the socket.

That´s always a bit tricky and often will not hold forever. You´ll probably also melt parts of the plastic housing with your soldering iron if the wire broke directly at the connector. Connectors are usually held by a bent metal tongue in the plastic housing. If you can figure this out a thin screwdriver will help removing it. Solder it and clip it back it. (if it`s possible) A random example:
Image
If you have a good (old) Ducati dealer he may have a chance getting a new connector housing. Otherwise you can always check the webpages of Molex, Tyco etc. Other bikes or cars also used a Marelli Digiplex so maybe one can find it there (ie from FIAT).
Also the sensor wire from the ECU is joined half way down by the wires twisted and taped together - probably okay, but crimping wires in connectors would be better, wouldn't it?
Twisted and taped is never ok unless that´s all one can do when the bike breaks down on a ride. If it´s a connector it should be crimped (not squashed). If it`s two wires connected (twisted), devide them, pull heat shrinking tube over them, twist them, solder them and the pull the heat shrinking tube up over the connection and shrink it.

G.
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higgy
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Re: Starting problem

Post by higgy »

:cool: :cool: :cool: Now there is the Gerhard we all have come to appreciate :!: :!: :!: :beer: :beer:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ducati,making mechanics out of riders since 1946
There's no problem so bad that a little fixing can't make it worse! : )
If it ain't broke keep fixin it till it is
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paso750
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Re: Starting problem

Post by paso750 »

instead of just watching TV tonight I drafted this. It`s not finished yet. If there´re any comments send me a pm and when finished I will put the file in the FAQs.

edit: file was added to P750 FAQs

G.
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romus
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Re: Starting problem

Post by romus »

paso750 wrote:instead of just watching TV tonight I drafted this. It`s not finished yet. If there´re any comments send me a pm and when finished I will put the file in the FAQs.

edit: file was added to P750 FAQs

G.
Yes, that is a really good resource. I will have it printed and with my copy of the wiring diagram.

Bad earth wire connection fixed at Digiplex and all starting well. thanks so much for all the help given. Just great :D :D :D
Warwick - on a learning curve and on a
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paso750
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Re: Starting problem

Post by paso750 »

see what I mean ?
I was waiting for a new post on this topic and if I wouldn´t have checked it again I wouldn´t have seen you edited your last post today adding you now solved the issue.

G.
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romus
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Re: Starting problem

Post by romus »

paso750 wrote:see what I mean ?
I was waiting for a new post on this topic and if I wouldn´t have checked it again I wouldn´t have seen you edited your last post today adding you now solved the issue.

G.
Yes okay, I get it.

So, motor is starting fine now. :D Clearly the loose earth wire from Digiplex was an issue. :D
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Re: Starting problem- now the Digiplex is identified

Post by romus »

Oh, I thought good after fixing wire problems, but now it starts &%*& only sometimes and if it starts even though it runs well, if I turn it off it likely won't start. This is the same behaviour whether new plugs or not.

Sent in Digiplex for analysis and are told it is irreparable, but they can replace it, so I am waiting.
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Re: Starting problem

Post by romus »

I got my new digiplex back and did manage to get it started and could feel/hear a much better smoothness in the running. So, I think a faulty digiplex was part of my starter problems, along with some bad wiring and somehow this also had burned out the solenoid.

But it was still hard for me to fire it up. I can't think of anything else electrical.

I suspect I have a problem with the Sprag Clutch as over the periods of my multiple attempts to start up some other clunking in the motor has become more noticeable.

I had changed my oil to synthetic a while ago during my starting trouble shooting and then noticed some ratchet clanking coming from the engine case. Maybe it was there before but less obvious with standard oil.

I didn't think much of it because I understood at start up for a few seconds the oil isn't flowing so some sound like this is not abnormal. Whne I got it started that noise went away.

But I think it has got worse and is now clearly noticeable. As much as I can tell I think the starter motor is working, but it might be unreliably turning the motor over. In turn that means the spark isn't timing with the turn over, correct?

As I understand it the sprag clutch is the thing that makes it turn over from the starter motor when in neutral, correct?
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Re: Starting problem

Post by Tamburinifan »

As I understand it the sprag clutch is the thing that makes it turn over from the starter motor when in neutral, correct?
Correct, inside looks like this:
http://www.perthstreetbikes.com/forum/f ... tch-85481/
Gert

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paso750
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Re: Starting problem

Post by paso750 »

In turn that means the spark isn't timing with the turn over, correct?
No, there´s no way the spark timing can vary. The pick ups get their signal from the flywheel which is mounted on the crankshaft which is turned by the starter. So no matter if the starter turns fast or slow the "firing signal" to the CDI unit will always be right or let´s better say as set by the pick up (bracket) position.

G.
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