research and development,american style

wiggs · Post by **wiggs** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:04 pm

in the depths of the great depression all but two of the american motorcycle manufactures were gone save indian and the davidson brothers. money was tight to say the least.sales were dismal if not non existant.
indian had aquired the rights to the ace motorcycle,itself an engine design of an in-line 4 cylinder developed by the henderson brothers back in 1900 and 11 or 12. henderson sold out to schwinn(of bicycle fame) who also owned excelsior giving them a complete line of singles, v-twins and in-line fours.
in the late teens the henderson brothers started the ace motorcycle company but always operating on a shoestring and the death of one of the brothers test riding a bike they went belly up.this gave indian a foothold in the 4 cylinder market with the acquisition of ace.
about the time the davidson brothers were developing overhead valves for their big twins indian was busy spending money they didn't have on it's inline four. in 1936 h.d. launched the knucklehead and indian unveiled the upside-down four,later know as the ugly duckling.
most engines of the time were i.o.e.(intake over exhaust) but indian's engineers figured if they put the exhaust valve on top it would be better cooled and not robbed of h.p.,therefore more powerful. as most of you paso owners know if a motorcycle is not good looking then then it probably won't sell very well. sales for the '36 four reflected this and for '37 they put twin carbs on the four calling it the sport four, trying to increase sales. this was a feeble attempt to sell motorcycles as it was still ugly ( i had a '37 four and if it was a '38 or '39 might still have it!) for 1938 indian again spent money they didn't have and redesigned the top end.
harley didn't get it exactly right the first time with the knuckle head either. the first year was plauged with some design problems but they did their homework and did get it right.
along comes wwII. sammy (as in uncle) says to indian and h.d. that he wants a 500 cc military bike.h.d. says "if we build a 500 cc bike we'll go broke". sammy says" if you don't ,you'll go broke 'cause we won't buy them".the davidson brother being bullheaded go about building a 750 cc military bike. indian,doing what it's told built 500 cc bikes. as it turns out the 30.50 cu.in. indians were gutless,top speed 60 mph downhill with a tailwind!( i built one and can attest to this). sammy buys the davidsons by the boatload,literally, and indian builds some mostly for overseas sales for france,australia and new zealand (an insurance adjuster that came to our ship because of a broken crankshaft in wellington had one still in the crate, that was late 1985)
during the war sammy asked indian and h.d. to design a bike to compete with rommel in the deserts of africa. indian turned it's v-twin sideways,guzzi style, and h.d. made a bmw copy both with shaft drive!!!! both companys made about 1000 bikes when sammy said they were no longer needed as the war was winding down.more money spent by both companies never recouped.
indian got stiffed when a boatload of their bikes went to the ocean floor,thanks to a u-boat. neither company came out of the war very healthy as their was little profit to be had selling to sammy but the did keep the factories busy building bikes.the davidson brothers did sell alot more bikes tho so did have a healthier outlook.
after the war indian was aquired by this rogers fellow.he saw british bikes sell good here in the states for two reasons. england devalued their currancy making thier bikes more affordable and returning gi's who had ridden the british stuff found them lightweight and fast with good handling. rogers bought an engineering firm and had them design a lightwieght bike for him. in 1949 they came out with a 220 cc single and a 440 cc twin. the 440 couldn't compete with the 500 cc british stuff so it was enlarged to 500 for the 1950 model year. for 1949 indian didn't produce it's bread and butter chief instead putting all it's resources into the verticals. to this day it is the only designed and manufactured vertical twin made in the u.s.a.
indian,still strapped for cash hurried these verticals into production to recoupe some doe stay afloat.dealers and buyers were crying for the big twin so in '50 indian came out with the 80 cu.in. chief. by hurrying the verticals into the streets they did a disservice to their following as there were design flaws and production problems that made for a bad product. indian didn't put a primary drive chain adjustment on the verticals instead advertising it's chain as "pre-stretched"
1900 and fifty-three saw the last of the indians as we know them roll out the doors and only a handfull at that.
the davidson brothers on the other hand were now the last men standing and had the market cornered ,somewhat anyway.
by the late 60's they too were teetering with bankruptcy.amf, cursed by many 2-day, saved them from a hostile takeover.amf,like any owner wanted to see a return on their investment and tried to increase production. this may have caused labor problems at the factory and along with antiquated machinery,(anyone with machining experience knows how hard it is to hold tolerances with junk machinery), produced an inferior product. 10 or so years later amf is tiring of playing this game and wants to unload h.d. i remember all the bike magazines of the time all saying the v-twin is dead and why doesn't h.d. and the other v-twin producers give up on it and design a transverse four,can't they see the success the japs are having with their sales success? ( our beloved ducati included!) several employees get together and ,literally, in the 11 th hour find money to buy the company from amf . the new company takes a major gamble and pours money they didn't have into the dinosaur of a company. with a lot of luck and a good economy that the u.s. had never seen b-4, h.d. was kept afloat and even prospered.
now, if anyone wants to bitch about h.d. just remember,supply and demand. if h.d. went under and those people bought ducati's we would have a year or more waiting list to buy a new one and used ones would be maybe twice as much!!!!!!!!!!
so ,to make this long story longer ,how much r+d can any company afford? indian,excelsior and ace all had good products that people gave their life developing but with a faltering economy who could afford to buy them? lady luck has alot to do with it.how many times has ducati teetered on the fence????seems like they are trapeze artist.
this is as i remember reading and any errors are not intentional.

Post by **Skins** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:09 pm

Very interesting to read, wiggs. I would have had to read a couple of books to know that stuff. A broken crankshaft on your ship, eh? So was your visit to our fair city an unscheduled call?

The real product test, which no R&D can duplicate, of course, is when production runs of the product are tested in use by the public. A kind of chicken-and-egg thing.

wiggs · Post by **wiggs** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:30 am

hi skins,
i joke about being a hillbilly with an obsessive- compulsive disorder but to tell the truth it may not be much of a joke (don't tell my wife i admitted that). i just sold the last of 50 or so jaguar books we had when i got the bug for jags. we had a '60 mk 1, '66 mk2, '68 e-type, '71 e-type,3 xj 6's and a '93 xjs roadster. i like to read-up on what i buy. so,you can imagine the library we have on bikes,cars,giant earth moving equipment etc... started my library in about '84 as it gave me something to read while on the ship. i'd order them and have them sent to the ship.
the ship broke a crank on the starboard engine in alaska. acouple month later after finishing a job in new guinea and heading to new plymouth where i was at to meet the ship it broke the port crank. they were 40's vintage fairbanks morris locomotive double opposed engines. the ship wasn't my responsibility as i was part of the seismic crew but i volunteered to go below and help with the change. we were in port in your lovely city for 5 weeks.longest stay i ever had in 5 yrs offshore.didn't go home that trip with any money but flannigans sure did a hell of a business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we also ported in invercargill(sp) and maybe one other port but can't remember for sure.when the price of petrol fell in '86 they got out of marine seismic work.instead of taking a flight home i volunteered to ride the ship back to the states,a 34 day trip.
as far as letting the public do the testing,that's exactly what indian did with their verticals. besides the manufacturing problems they encountered it was designed by an outboard motor engineer who just didn't understand the demands required on a motocycle engine ( indians were motocycles,with this spelling).
i can't remember the exact details how the british acquired the rights to badge royal enfields as indians in the later 50's. there was even a vincent engine tried in a chief frame if i remember correctly.
by the way,i no longer need to wait for the dreaded letter.i got a call for a whiz quiz monday morning and a physical friday. then just to steal my glory,my 1 day of fame, melody got a call for a job offer for a somewhat supervisory position at another hospital that she applied for.when it rains ,it pours eh!
i do appreciate everyones kind support during my"vacation". i still have dukes 2 knee surgeries on the books to take care of.not too many people would have spent 5 big ones on a castrated mut that will bring no financial returns but i promised him when he was diagnosed @ 7 month old i would do whatever i could for him and being a man of my word,even if it was to a dog.got him 3 days after burying the other duke we had for 12-1/2 yrs. thats where i got wiggs from. we call him wigglebutt because of the way he walked, shortened that to mr.wiggs then just wiggs. he's actually the 3rd duke . the first i was on the 450 scrambler and stopped to pee and found a puppy. tucked him in my leather and took him home. his head sticking out the front of my jacket,he loved it. that's one reason i wanted another chair as i'm sure earl will love it also. didn't get to keep that duke tho as dad stepped in dog sh t and that was that,found him a good home.

Post by **Skins** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:31 am

Great news, you two! Sounds like a bluddy good place you got, and a bluddy good life you're living. Keep it up!

Do you know that one about the bloke with the ostrich and the cat?

wiggs · Post by **wiggs** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:16 am

nope. i may have but can't remember jokes. went to a comedy show in colorado once and wanted to remember some of the jokes but couldn't. may have been the scotch as i woke up thirsty! lucky for me,well, sometimes anyway,melody remembers thinks easily. tell us about the bird,i told ya mine(that i stole).
also, thank you.

Post by **Skins** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:04 am

OK. It's quite long, so I'll tell it as quick as I can.

A bloke goes into a pub with an ostrich and a cat, and they sit down at the bar. The barman comes up. 'What'll you have?'. The bloke says 'A pint please,' ostrich says 'A pint please,' cat says 'A half, please, as long as I'm not paying'. Barman serves them, says '$3.75 please' Bloke reaches into pocket, pulls out handfull of change, drops it on the bar. Barman counts it, puts it in till. They finish their drinks. Barman comes up, says 'Hows it going, fellas?' Bloke says, 'Another pint, please', ostritch says 'Another pint, please', cat says 'Another half, please, as long as I'm not paying'. Barman serves them, bloke pulls out handfull of change, drops it on the bar. Barman counts it, puts in it till. This goes on for some time: 'Another pint please,' Another pint please', 'Another half please, as long as I'm not paying', bloke puts right money on bar.

Eventually the barman asks, 'How come you're sitting here with this ostrich and this cat, and you always have the right money?'

The bloke says, 'Well, sometime ago I met a leprechaun. I did him a favour, and he said I could have three wishes. I didn't want to be rich, because I thought I might not be able to handle it, so I asked if I could always have enough money on me for what I wanted'.

Barman says, 'I see. What about the ostritch and the cat?'

The bloke says, 'Well, I had a bit of trouble with my second wish. I said I wanted a bird with long legs and a tight pussy. So here we are'.

:laugh:

fasterdammit · Post by **fasterdammit** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:39 am

:funny: :laugh: careful what you wish for? Good one Skins

Duck01 · Post by **Duck01** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:42 am

Gotta be a universal male wish, maybe.........

Post by **Skins** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:51 am

er, wiggs ... you've been very quiet ... I hope my little pub story didn't cause any offence.

Post by **Skins** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:46 am

.... wiggs?

Duck01 · Post by **Duck01** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:23 am

Hey Skins - don't panic mate - Wiggs has gotta have a sense of humour, being a Paso owner & all........

You'll probably find that he's just out taking the dog for a looooong walk, while searching for a leprechaun.........

Post by **Skins** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:02 pm

I hope so, Duck.

wiggs · Post by **wiggs** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:28 am

hi guys,
have been trying to fit the avonaire fairing to the '59 r69.it just seemed to sit on the bike crooked!? i'd loosen up all the mounts and push and pull and it still sat there crooked. after 2 or 3 days of playing this game i noticed the bike wasn't sitting straight up. after placing some shims under one foot of the center stand the bike AND fairing looked good!! ya, i have a sense of humor,i must to tell ya'll this so you can giggle at me.
loved the joke skins. reminds me of the golfer who found the leprechaun and was granted three wishes.well, at the 18 hole he was granted his 3rd wish of longer legs so "it" didn't drag the ground!(shortened version here but you know where it went).
i also like the downhill racer story. do you ever see those mates anymore?
a buddy called me saturday and told me of a 250 duke for sale.i told him i don't have any business buying any bikes right now.sunday noonish i call the guy and go look and buy it.damn,just what i didn't want to do.it's a '66 monza with 908 miles showing. this guy bought it from some guy 23 yrs ago and parked it in his garage. just got it home 2day and drained the oil,all 2 pints of it. took the carb off and am charging a battery for it to see if it may start.the old story time and no money or money and no time.
more later,gotta feed the boys,bonny too.

Post by **Skins** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:53 am

That's a relief, wiggs.

Fairings and screens can be funny things to fit - lots of subtle curves to balance.

Yeah, still close to the boys on that downhill run. One of them might do some milling for me (though he doesn't know it yet) when it comes to tool-making for the buckle.

Well done with the Monza! A good investment, I'd say.

Heard this one two days ago: A bloke says to his wife, 'I killed four flies today.' She says, 'Did you really?' He says, 'Yeah, one male and three females.' She says, 'Don't be rediculous, how do you know they were one male and three females?' He says, 'It was quite straight-forward: the male was sitting on a can of beer, and the three females were on the phone.'