Got Oil?

[higgy]

The original Honda,the 600 was actually a motorcycle engine and trans fitted into the chassis. The first civic when it hit the market in 1972 also used engine oil to lube the tranny. Do keep in mind the engine and trans do not share the same oil supply.

[blazing928]

for the bike
Motul 5100 4T 10w/50,
I think you would need bike oil if one had a wet clutch. [true ?]

Personally I would prefer a 20W/50, old bikes have big clearances vs the newer bikes, so the next change will be a 20W/50. I am also having some case leaks, but most likely unrelated.
Might give the Belray a try....

for the car, porsche 1987 928s4
Penrite SIN or HPR 30
these have a very high zinc content, which is very important for 928s to stop cam shaft wear and thrust bearing failure. Please don't argue this, its a world wide fact!
Again anything under a 20w for out temperate climate is a no no due to the larger clearances.
running a 5w/30 or 40 causes problems, where a new 911 is designed for the smaller clearances.

I have never heard of zinc causing a sludge, oil is a cheap engine insurance, even missing a filter change for every second oil change

[higgy]

I think you would need bike oil if one had a wet clutch. [true ?]

Yes,somewhat true, although automotive oils would be better than no oil

these have a very high zinc content, which is very important for 928s to stop cam shaft wear and thrust bearing failure. Please don't argue this, its a world wide fact!

Zinc in fact is added to oil to prevent metal to metal contact when the shear strength of the oil fails. Better to buy a high quality oil to begin with
Here is a quote from a NASA study on oil additives in general

This conclusion seems to be borne out by tests on oil additives conducted by the NASA Lewis Research Center, which said in their report, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of lubricant"

But wait ,there's more specifically on zinc as an additive

Another type of additive is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate. Zinc-d is found in Mechanics Brand Engine Tune Up, K Mart Super Oil Treatment, and STP Engine Treatment With XEP2, among others. The touting of zinc-d as a special ingredient in engine oil additives is a little like the Shell ads which touted "Platformate." (Most gasoline has similar additives but under different names.) Zinc-d is an additive in most, if not all, major oil brands. The wonder oils just put more of the stuff in a 50 weight engine oil. It would be useful if your engine were ever operated under extremely abnormal conditions where metal contacts metal: "the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing, particularly between cylinder bores and piston rings....unless you plan on spending a couple of hours dragging your knee at Laguna Seca, adding extra zinc compounds to your oil is usually a waste.... Also, keep in mind that high zinc content can lead to deposit formation on your valves, and spark plug fouling" (Rau).

If zinc-d is so good for your engine, why haven't oil manufacturers been putting more of it in their standard mix of oil and additives? Actually, oil companies have been decreasing the amount of zinc-d because the evidence indicates that zinc-d causes deterioration of catalytic converters.

So like I said previously unless you are planning to tear down your engine on a regular basis zinc is not a good additive.

[blazing928]

I gather thats ZDDP.

Interesting, but not conclusive thats it ALWAYS bad. Metal to metal contact, like cams lobes and the thrust bearings, problem areas in 928 motors.

There are plenty of 300-400,00 mile 928s around in the states that are showing no signs of wear using the correct 20W/50 high zddp oils vs destroyed motors using low viscosity oils. the bearing clearances are just too large.
Some racers have excellent results with Amsoil.

My personal opinon is that you just need a good 20w/50 oil!

Mobil 1 delvac, the diesel oil had high quantitys of ZDDP.

[higgy]

I use AMSoil myself most of the time, and yes it contains zinc but half of what most oils use. The reason I use AMSoil is it is one of the most stable oils around with excellent shear qualities. 20w-50 would be a good choice for warmer climates, has nothing to do with clearances or the production date of your engine.
Here's more on additives

The Truth About Oil Additives
Nov 21 '02

The Bottom Line Don't use any oil additives whatsoever, NONE of them are effective and many are damaging. Simply use a good quality oil, its got all the additives you need.

Everybody and their brother has some sort of miracle oil additive that promises to add horsepower, recondition your engine, increase fuel economy, and protect your engine from anything and everything. Listen to that claim, it even sounds like they're selling snake oil! Unfortunately they are. Prolong, Slick50, Duralube, zMax, etc have all been sued by the FTC for deceptive product marketing, as they have all been tested and none actually showed the benefits they tout. In some cases (Prolong in particular), the oil additives were actually more harmful for the engine then using oil alone. What about your precious zMax? Nothing more then tinted mineral oil. I'm serious. How can this be? There are absolutely no standards or regulations governing the safety or effectiveness of oil additives. Oil additives fall into four categories: pure snake oil, PTFE, Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, and detergent-based. The snake oil category are simply those products that are a complete sham, like zMax, Slick50 and Prolong. Don't believe me?

The second category are the additives that tout "PTFE" or "Teflon" to us lamen. The companies that sell PTFE products brag that it coats the moving parts of the engine and reduces friction and wear. Lets think about this a second. PTFE is a fairly large solid particle (flake). Isn't the oil filter supposed to filter our particulate matter down to 10 microns? So won't the oil filter filter out all the precious PTFE that you just put in? The answer to both those questions is yes. Not only is this an ineffective additive, its also dangerous. Lab testing found that PTFE was less likely to coat the moving parts and more likely to begin clogging pipes and other small passageways (not to mention your filter). Not only that, but PTFE was shown to double iron contamination in the oil (which increases engine wear). For the final nail in the PTFE (Teflon) coffin, NASA studied it for potential use in its rockets and found that it was both ineffictive in lubrication and also clogged small passages (like cholesterol in arteries). The following are SOME (not all) of the PTFE containing products currently on the market: Slick 50, Liquid Ring, Lubrilon, Microlon, Matrix, Petrolon (same company as Slick 50), QMl, and T-Plus (K-Mart).

The next oil additive category is Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, we'll just call it zinc. Zinc is contained as part of the standard additive package in virtually every major brand of engine oil sold today. Organic zinc compounds are used as extreme pressure, anti-wear additives, and are therefore found in larger amounts in oils specifically blended for high-revving, turbocharged or racing applications. The zinc in your oil comes into play only when there is actual metal-to-metal contact within your engine, which should never occur under normal operating conditions. However, if you race, or occasionally play tag with the redline on the tach, the zinc is your last line of defense. Under extreme conditions, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing, particularly between cylinder bores and piston rings. Adding extra zinc via oil additives is not only unnecessary, it is harmful to the catalytic converter. The following are SOME (not all) of the zinc dialkyldithiophosphate containing products currently on the market: Mechanics Brand Engine Tune Up, K Mart Super Oil Treatment, and STP Engine Treatment With XEP2.

The final oil additive category is detergent based. Many of the older, better-known oil treatments on the market do not make claims nearly so lavish as the new upstarts. Old standbys like Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil, instead offer things like "quieter lifters," "reduced oil burning" and a "cleaner engine." Most of these products are made up of solvents and detergents designed to dissolve sludge and carbon deposits inside your engine so they can be flushed or burned out. Wynn's Friction Proofing Oil, for example, is 83 percent kerosene. Other brands use naphthalene, xylene, acetone and isopropanol. Usually, these ingredients will be found in a base of standard mineral oil. In general, these products are designed to do just the opposite of what the PTFE and zinc phosphate additives claim to do. Instead of leaving behind a "coating" or a "plating" on your engine surfaces, they are designed to strip away such things. All of these products will strip sludge and deposits out and clean up your engine, particularly if it is an older, abused one. The problem is, unless you have some way of determining just how much is needed to remove your deposits without going any further, such solvents also can strip away the boundary lubrication layer provided by your oil. Overuse of solvents is an easy trap to fall into, and one which can promote harmful metal-to-metal contact within your engine. As a general rule of thumb these products had their place and were at least moderately useful on older automobile and motorcycle engines of the Fifties and Sixties, but are basically unneeded on the more efficient engine designs of the past two decades.

Recommendation: All of these products are just psychological placebos. Don't use any oil additives whatsoever, NONE of them have been shown to be effective (except detergent-based additives, which are not necessary except for single use in old and neglected engines) and many are even detrimental. Simply use a good quality oil, it will have all the additives your engine needs, mixed right in. Oil additives only serve to lessen the effectiveness of your oil's additives and lubrication properties.

[blazing928]

Amsoil is almost non existent here. I remember the Amsoil rep coming to an Alfa meeting in the 80s! I used their synthetic gearbox oil in my Alfetta, gerabox at the back, so slow to warm up and poor 2nd gear synchros, the oil helped a lot.

I do beg to differ about bearing clearances needing an appropriate oil for the conditions. Again , put a 0 or 10w oil in a 928 and it won't have enough oil pressure at idle on a hot day. My comments apply to our temps here where it does'nt reach 0c in winter.
As I understood it the bearings run on a film of oil, so while a 10w oil may be ok in a northern Euro/US winter its too thin on a 40c day.
Now I gather film strenght should prevent metal to metal most of the time, otherwise the motors would sieze in a few minutes, but not long term in our 928s.

Isn't ZDDP also being reduced in the latest spec oils as its poor for the enviroment? You mention cats.

What about redline and I think its called royal purple or something like that?

[higgy]

I get mine online,you can do the same.

I do beg to differ about bearing clearances needing an appropriate oil for the conditions. Again , put a 0 or 10w oil in a 928 and it won't have enough oil pressure at idle on a hot day. My comments apply to our temps here where it does'nt reach 0c in winter.

0W-40 is a 40 weight oil not a 0 weight oil
I wouldn't use anything less than a 20 weight in any engine used for transportation,maybe a sewing machine or a set of hair clippers or to sharpen as knife.

As for clearances in any engine, the temperature the engine is operating at has more to do with oil selection than any internal clearances. and yes it is wise to use a heavier oil in warmer climates, but even this depends more on the intended use of the engine

As for the 928, you would be better served by running external oil lines to the cam bearings to insure it always has a good oil supply. A bad design is a bad design zinc can't save you.
Now to be fair lots of engines have issues supplying oil to the valve train,just ask Honda, they have yet to make a new model without an oil supply issue to some degree.

The issue with zinc is the same as its benefit, it tends to chemically bond to other metals. On the one side of the coin this prevents metal to metal contact by making a protective shield...When the oil supply fails.........the other side of the coin is it bonds to your oil passages as well restricting the oil supply leading to a failure. The best solution is always an adequate oil supply that is not too hot, exceeding its thermal limits

[Finnpaso]

Sorry, but i dont have enough time to read all of this disscussion(this topic), but if someone have some evidences about using WRONG viscosity/brand, etc oil in Paso engine; i am very intresting to hear it HERE and what were damages, maybe some fotos , etc....

[Xchoppers]

I exclusively use Mobil 1 oils in all my vechicles.
I wouldn't use Amsoil in my lawn mower...

[nnnnnnorman]

i dont have a lawn mower but did put fuchs silkolene comp 4 in my paso last service and will probably do so next time.

[higgy]

I wouldn't use Amsoil in my lawn mower...

Dude,Them's fightin words where I come from,lucky for you you ain't where I come from. Er ah well actually you are but I don't live on the west cost any more...So there

[nnnnnnorman]

lawnmowers at dawn.

[higgy]

lawnmowers at dawn.

In the vineyard,dawn's too early dude,how bout noon
I really have no idea why some one would have anything against AMSoil,then alone prefer Mobil 1 especially if they knew about the history of Mobil 1. While in the end Mobil 1 has become an above average oil,it certainly has a sordid past and has never risen above the simply adequate class of lubrication offered at a premium price. Now that being said I certainly would not put AMSoil in my lawn mower either,nor would I put Mobil 1 in it. My lawn mower requires an oil able to deal with a high moisture content and a very wide range of temperatures

[nnnnnnorman]

lawnmowers at noon. high noon. so did we end up with the answer to the original question? what are the best oils for use in our bikes?

[blazing928]

nope!
As many opinions as there are a** holes And I only mean that in that there every one has an opinion ..no offence mean't to any one...having to explain a joke so you don't offend sort of defeats the joke?

now using Penrite SIN 20 a 20w/60 full synthetic, motor hasn't siezed yet!