I have a bad feeling about this

[Mobius]

So I fitted the new starter motor, cleaned the water pump
and refitted that, too. I'm wiping down the inside of the
alternator case and prepping the engine cover surfaces
for refitting when I find this:



The red arrow indicates where I found this small piece of metal:



Then I notice further up. This...



There is no other damage I can see on this side of the motor.
I have no idea what that hole is, or how it got there, but there
seems to be an awful lot of alloy missing which is NOT on the
alternator side of the engine cover. Please tell me the big hole
at the bottom is the oil pickup and that it goes directly to the
oil filter from there!

Can someone tell me how many thousands of dollars this is
going to cost to fix? I suspect it will be a quite a few.

I guess I diagnosed my false neutrals issue. Not too happy
about it though. *sigh*

Since I got the bike, when the bike was cold-started, it would
sometimes make a nasty sound like something binding up - and
I thought it might have been a valve not closing properly with
little or no oil in the head - but I now suspect it was pieces of
metal chewing through the engine case. Pretty upset now.

[ducapaso]

Have you drained the oil?
In case of extreme need, you can drain, try to clean the oil using a nylon stocking as a net and refill, to wash the engine unside the gearbox, then drain again.
Some metal powder is just "italilan character", metal pieces is "a bad feeling".
What is the size of the piece you found?

[Mobius]

Thanks for helping me out!

The metal piece measures 4mm x 3mm x 1.5mm (I edited the photo.)

It has a black coating on al the surfaces except one, which is a fracture surface - which makes me think it is part of the engine case itself which has broken off.

I took a look at the shop manual, and it *almost* looks like there is meant to be an opening there (behind where I found it), but it is not clear from the diagrams. There is a bearing showing through the gap, but it does not appear to be damaged. Is there normally a hole there which has simply been enlarged? Or has this process actually worn through the side of the case?

I filtered the oil through some pretty fine stockings, and there does not appear to be any solid matter in it at all, nor in the bottom of the oil bucket. But the bike was drained from cold, not warm - could that affect it?

Is my best idea to progress with the reassembly, put the old oil back in it, run it warm, drain it out, filter the oil again and repeat? Do that twice and then replace the oil filter and put new oil in it?

Question: are the three marks in the engine case, below the gear selector arm normal? I was concerned to see these too.

[paso750]

Mobius, do you mean the hole behind the arrow ? That`s normal. It may not have been properly deburred.
This is a friends Cagiva Elefant. it has it, too (if you look close).



and this is mine (it also has the 3 marks from the shifter arm)



I wonder if that piece you found belongs to the right side of the hole, could it be ? If so I`d flush the oil to ensure there`s no other metal particles and that`s it.
Was your shifter arm welded or is that just some oil ?

Oil should be drained when warm as the floating particles will sediment when the engine is cold. As a consequence you will get less of the dirt out the engine if you drain it with a cold engine.

G.

[Mobius]

Thanks G.

Edit: It's just a drop of oil on the arm.

I actually pulled off a very thin sliver of alloy, with black surface on it, that was attached to that hole, so it seems reasonably clear that this damage has been caused in situ, and is not a manufacturing/finishing defect.

It looks like it has been milled by particles, or pieces of things - not machine marks.

Note the large whack that has damaged the engine case just aft of the gear selector arm - behind that third indentation created by the armature. Looks like something has come up through the gap and been crunched against the case by the gear changing process. Perhaps I am stunningly lucky, and that only one piece of metal has been loose in the motor, and it got caught up in the U shape somehow.

Nah - I'm not THAT lucky.

I'll run oil through it a couple of times when warm, and see if anything washes out.

[Mobius]

I'm very happy to hear the three marks made by the gear arm is normal. But, WTH with a design which impacts the engine case? o_O

Oh, that's right: built by Italians.

[paso750]

Looking at your pics again, your shifter arm looks a bit worn. At least mine looks different.
Are those little silver spots metal particles or is that just the reflection of the flash in the oil ?



G.

[Fraser]

Mobius,

Have a look at the 906 on TradeMe, it has cracked cases where the chain has broken/jambed, bit of a mess. But anyway, in the photos of that bike you can clearly see the same "hole" that you have. It would be there by design.
Cheers,
Fraser.

[Mobius]

Hi Fraser - yeah - I was aware of this one - and I took a look at that bike last night on Trademe. Looks like a very expensive disaster that will cost thousands to fix. I can see that hole is normal now - a huge relief. Thanks!

The loose piece of case metal scares me 8-ways from Sunday though.

G: Yes, I took a close look at the gear shifter last night, and you are right - there is some wearing on it, but I can't see how much as it's worn on the side/back of the armature.

Could this wearing be the cause of the false neutrals I seem expert at finding?

Cheers,

Chris/Mobius

[paso750]

Hey Chris, I don´t think that that has to do with your neutral problems. Those are common if the arm is bent, the spring is not ok anymore or the or the 2 teeth of the shifter arm show wear.
I actually don`t really understand how that lower part can show wear as I don´t see what`s there that could get in contact with it. Maybe that piece you found got jammed between it and the drum once.

G.

[angelix]

the False Neutrals can be caused by:

- poor lubricated or bably worn pedal linkage

- wrong pedal position

- wrong setting of the gearbox selector

- bent or badly worn selector

- worn gears (in this case the gear goes in but then slips off)

since you have the engine open, I would start from looking at the selector setting; the procedure to set it properly is in the workshop manual (section H, page 14); sometimes it is off by 1mm and it is more than enough to cause gearbox essues.

while you are there check also for damages (bent selector) then once everything is assembled back, check and lubricate well the linkages,which w are usually the most common and often overlooked cause of gear insertion problems..

[giocast]

I shouldn't worry about the odd false neutral Mobius unless it's happening every dozen changes or less. You can find a false neutral by not being quite firm enough during operation and it can happen on many Cagiva/Ducati gearboxes - old or new, 2v or 4v. Apart from reading other people's accounts, I have certainly experienced above on a range of bikes from '91 to '99 at least.

[Mobius]

Thanks for the tips on the false neutrals. I am extremely positive with my gear changes, as I have a ruined left ankle, with very little flexion/extension through the ankle joint. As a result I look a bit gimpy changing gear, but they are nothing if not firm and authoritative.

I wouldn't expect the box to find a neutral more than once every 20 changes or so. The downshifts are the ones which freak me out though. I REALLY like my engine braking!

The "wear" seen on the gear selector armature is a manufacturing effect, and is not wear. I got a mirror in behind it, and the thing is pristine. There are no apparent bends, wear or damage I can see at all on that side of the motor.

I have given the gearbox issues up as I need to get the bike mobile, because the Porsche has an alternator issue which desperately needs fixing...

I put the thing back together again, and it all went swimmingly so far as I can tell. However, I can't start the thing!

The Electronics Guru who examined my burned out starter motor told me that bike starters can overheat easily with extended cranking, and that this will damage it. So I am not cranking for longer than about 6 seconds at a time. Then leaving it for at least 40 seconds before trying again.

It almost fired up last night - but 6 attempts this morning wouldn't get it firing. We didn't do anything to prevent it starting, but I recall it being hard to start when it sat for several months previously.

[paso750]

Assuming that the carbs are synchronized and the spark plugs are ok for better starting there are basically 4 cures. Fresh fuel, the wiring mod for the coils, stronger coils (like Dynas) and a proper (thicker & better) wiring for the starter and grounds. The first three will improve the starting the last the cranking. (the first two are a must)
If all this won`t help you should definetely check the clearance pick-ups to flywheel.

G.

[Tamburinifan]

the False Neutrals can be caused by:

Maybe most important:
It`s a 90`s Ducati.