New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

discussions specific to the 906 Paso
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whitepaso
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by whitepaso »

Wow, that's quite a read.....and now the complete layman's recommendation (mine) for what to use in the 906; go with the highest octane you can buy and stay away from the pings. My old beemers run much better on higher octances and they ping like hail on a tin roof if the octane is below 90. Remember when Sonoco stations had 5 or 6 octanes to choose from? Anyway, call me a simpleton :shock: , but that's my 2 cents.
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by DesmoDog »

whitepaso wrote:Wow, that's quite a read.....and now the complete layman's recommendation (mine) for what to use in the 906; go with the highest octane you can buy and stay away from the pings.
Thats what I do too. :wink:
-Craig
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by higgy »

Cool, an intelligent discussion with someone with a clue. Lets wipe the slate clean and start again if that is ok with you.
First let me apologize for my flippant bullshit comment,you obviously deserve better. :,(
Lets see if we can agree on a few ground rules................
If you and I delve into chemistry of the combustion process we will leave everyone here including me behind in short order. Its been 30 years since I had much to do with the chemistry of combustion,or engine design for that matter. I think it is sufficient to say that in your average gasoline fueled internal combustion engine regardless of the compression ratio fuels are designed to burn at a rate which provides the best transfer of the energy of combustion to the crankshaft as rotational energy. That being said for the purpose of this discussion lets assume a square engine with no such tricks as variable rod lengths or multiple valves with variable timing or anything else special or out of the ordinary.
Now let me ask you a simple question.
What happens to flame propagation in your average engine with a compression ratio of 9:1 when you burn 91 octane fuel?
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by higgy »

WRONG ! WRONG ! WRONG! It IS NOT OK TO RUN HIGH OCTANE FUELS IN ENGINES NOT REQUIRING IT. AKA ENGINES UNDER 10.5:1 compression ratio you will turn your paso into a sludge puppie,guaranteed.
STAY TUNED for more.......................
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by DesmoDog »

higgy wrote:Cool, an intelligent discussion with someone with a clue. Lets wipe the slate clean and start again if that is ok with you.
First let me apologize for my flippant bullshit comment,you obviously deserve better. :,(
Lets see if we can agree on a few ground rules................
If you and I delve into chemistry of the combustion process we will leave everyone here including me behind in short order. Its been 30 years since I had much to do with the chemistry of combustion,or engine design for that matter. I think it is sufficient to say that in your average gasoline fueled internal combustion engine regardless of the compression ratio fuels are designed to burn at a rate which provides the best transfer of the energy of combustion to the crankshaft as rotational energy. That being said for the purpose of this discussion lets assume a square engine with no such tricks as variable rod lengths or multiple valves with variable timing or anything else special or out of the ordinary.
Now let me ask you a simple question.
What happens to flame propagation in your average engine with a compression ratio of 9:1 when you burn 91 octane fuel?
Apology accepted. Appreciated even. :thumbup:

I'll agree with your assumptions. I'd like to add another though - we're talking pump gas here. No rocket fuels or F1 racing fuels. Oh wait, that was redundant.

Too many unknowns in your question but short answer is... not a damn thing. It burns at virtually the same speed as 89 octane does. Again, show me sources if you disagree cuz everything I've seen says any slight difference isn't important and is not the mechanism that controls knock.
-Craig
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by higgy »

We will use pump gas and leave out the quality differences between brands,additives or anything outside of the ordinary in the US
Let me ask my question from a different angle. Do you know why engines with high compression and high octane fuel requirements always without exception use a more aggressive spark advance curves?
Pardon the questions,just seeing how much of the gasoline FAQ you quoted you understand.
BTW, Boyles law has everything to do with internal combustion engines in this universe, ICE's after all use air to provide the force that moves you and I down the road to our destination.The fuel is simple the agent that heats the air causing it to expand. It is the mechanical properties of the engine relative to time and pressure that determine the fuel.
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by Tamburinifan »

Let me ask my question from a different angle. Do you know why engines with high compression and high octane fuel requirements always without exception use a more aggressive spark advance curves?
My impression, too. Also courious,
is it just because the gas should ignite earlier due to higher compression or what?


Heard that lower octane gas has higher energy/power content than high octane gas, true or false?
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by higgy »

gasoline has the same amount of energy regardless of octane rating
the reason for more spark advance is due to longer evaporation period of higher octane fuels. gasoline does not burn as a liquid it must change state to burn
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by higgy »

And THIS has me really confused:
Quote:
Two plugs,two flame fronts propagating burning the complete charge faster not faster flame propagation

Why confused? Two plugs,you ignite the fuel at two points in the charge, each point propagates at the same speed but the entire charge gets burned in half the time.
For example,if you take a jug and poke a hole in it the water will leak out at a certain speed. if you you poke a second hole in it
while each hole will leak at the same speed,because there are now two holes it will be empty in half the time as one hole.
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by higgy »

To the best of my knowledge there is only one published paper currently available on internet detailing the consequences of using high octane fuel in low compression IC engines you can read it here http://teknoloji.karabuk.edu.tr/1302-00 ... 79-487.pdf
Needless to say this is an area the oil companies have shied away from since Exxon was sued by the FTC back in the late 70's after promoting there higher octane fuels as giving better performance in your typical everyday engine,some of you may remember the PUT A TIGER IN YOUR TANK campaign Exxon lost that case and the ads stopped. Seems what was really happening was as a result of the incomplete combustion of high octane fuels in engines that did not have the combustion pressures needed to burn the SLOWER burning fuel at the proper rate was a rise in HC at the exhaust and in the oil. This lead to significant carbon build up in the engine which over time would increase the engines compression ratio to a point where the engine would then require high octane fuel to avoid knocking. Seems that the more time you spent at part throttle openings the faster the carbon would build up. Put this in combination with HC dilution of the engines lubrication and what you got your self was a decrease in engine life of up to 40%.
Now I can tell you from personal experience having taken 1000's of honda and gm engines apart when you burn high octane fuel in an engine designed for regular
fuel, all that unburned gas ends up in your oil pan. The magic number is 60,000 miles give or take a few thousand. I had several engines that even tho I personally had records of regular oil changes when the drain plugs were removed to drain the oil nothing came out. When I removed the oil pans what I found was a pan full of sludge so thick it had to be scooped out . Now I am not a chemist and I have no clue as to what the chemical process that turned the oil into sludge was or is.I can tell you that high octane fuels over the years have had all sorts of nasty chemicals blended in them to reduce knocking.Most sooner or later have to be changed due to their enviornmental effects. I can also tell you that in the mid eighties every single manufacturer of automobiles added to the technical service bulletins a bulletin which warned against the use of high octane fuels in normal engines not designed to use high octane fuels. Rough idle,hard start,poor fuel economy and shorter engine life all listed as symptomatic conditions.
Now as to whether high octane fuel burns slower than low octane fuels I offer up the following.
Knocking is caused by the rapid explosive and INCOMPLETE burning of vaporized fuel ahead of the normal flame front. High octane fuels have chemicals added to them to make the fuel vaporizing occur at a more uniform rate attempting to resist this explosion. In effect they raise the pressure at which this knocking occurs by raising the pressure at which combustion occurs. High octane fuels at ground level in low compression engines in effect will burn slower and incompletely simple because the pressure is not there in a low compression engine. Optimum Flame propagation in high compression engines is basically the same as low octane engines for a given rpm range during normal combustion. High compression engines require more energetic and earlier spark timing to get the fuel burning at the required rate
It is late,I'm tired your turn.............
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by higgy »

another good article I ran across


Written by Racetech, Inc. - reproduced with permission

Possibly nowhere else in the performance engine world is there more misinformation, myth and downright false claims than in the ignition component aftermarket. Many manufacturers of these products prey on the naive, uninformed consumer. We will try to help you understand what is really going on and what works and what doesn't. This article addresses current production performance atmospheric and turbocharged engines.

The Ignition/Combustion Process
Many people think that when the sparkplug fires, the fuel/air mixture explodes instantaneously, driving the piston down. If this really happened, engines would last only a few minutes before they literally grenaded.

Let's examine the process and dynamics involved from the moment that the intake valve is fully open. With the piston moving down the bore, cylinder volume increases and the cylinder pressure decreases, allowing the higher pressure in the intake tract to push the fuel/air mixture into the cylinder. As the piston starts back up and the intake valve closes, cylinder volume decreases and cylinder pressure increases.

When the crankshaft reaches about 30 degrees before top dead center, the spark jumps the gap between the plug electrodes. The purpose of the spark is to raise the temperature of a very small portion of the fuel/air mixture above its ignition temperature. This is the point where true combustion begins. As the exothermic reaction starts, the mixture directly adjacent to the spark plug is also ignited and the process rapidly progresses out from the plug in a roughly spherical shape.

At about 20 degrees BTDC, the rate of heat release causes the cylinder pressure to rise above the compression line which is what the cylinder pressure would be at a given piston position without ignition. Notice that it has taken 10 degrees of crank rotation to generate this pressure level. This is known as the ignition-delay period.

The rate of pressure rise is a function of the rate of energy release vs. the rate of change of combustion space or cylinder volume. The rate of energy release is directly related to the flame propagation rate and the area of reacting surface. Flame speed is dependant on fuel/air ratio, charge density, charge homogeny, fuel characteristics, charge turbulence and reaction with inert gasses and the metal combustion chamber, cylinder walls and piston.

In technical terms, the pressure rise is referred to as flagregation. No two combustion cycles progress at the same rate or at a uniform rate. Some start slow and end slow. Some start slow and end fast. Some start fast and slow down. Generally, only the ones that end too fast will lead to knocking as the rapid pressure rise may happen too soon with the cylinder volume still decreasing or not increasing fast enough. Usually, not all cylinders will knock at the same time or on the same cycle because of this.

By the time the crank is at about 5 degrees ATDC, the cylinder pressure is about double that of the compression line. From this point to roughly 15 degrees ATDC the combustion process is very rapid due to the increasing area of inflamed mixture and the high rate of energy release. The peak cylinder pressure (PCP) occurs between 10 and 20 degrees ATDC on most engines and the combustion process is complete by 20 to 25 degrees ATDC. The peak temperature within the combustion gasses will reach somewhere around 5000 degrees Fahrenheit and pressures may be anywhere from 300 to 2500psi depending on the engine.

Obviously it is very important to have the crankpin at an advantageous angle before maximum cylinder pressure is achieved in order that maximum force is applied through the piston and rod to the crankshaft. If the mixture was ignited too early, much of the force would simply try to compress the piston, rod and crank without performing any useful work. In a worst case scenario, the cylinder pressure would be rapidly rising before the piston reached TDC which would have the cylinder volume decreasing at the same time. This will often result in knock or detonation, which is counterproductive to maximum power and engine life.

Detonation or knock is defined as a form of combustion, which involves too rapid a rate of energy release producing excessive temperatures and pressures, adversely affecting the conversion of chemical energy into useful work. Detonation usually involves ignition and literal explosion of the end gases, these being the gases not in contact with the initial spark or the progressing flame front.

If PCP were achieved too late, again, less work would be performed. Most of the useful work is done in the first 100 degrees of crank rotation. Most combustion must be done with the piston in close proximity to the chamber so that the minimum amount of heat (energy) is lost into the water jackets and the maximum amount of energy is delivered to the crankshaft.

Let's examine the different variables regarding flame speed separately and their effects:

Fuel/air Ratio
Gasoline can be ignited in a non-stratified charge type engine between limits of roughly 11 to 1 (rich) and 20 to 1 (lean) air/fuel ratios. Most gasolines will burn fastest at ratios in the 17 to 1 range. The stoichiometric or chemically correct ratio is around 14.7 to 1 which also results in the lowest average emissions. Best power is obtained with a rich mixture of around 12 to 1.

Charge Density
Charge density is affected by the pressure and temperature of the charge. The higher the charge density, the more rapidly it will burn.

Charge Homogeny
This refers to how uniformly the air and fuel molecules are distributed in the charge. This is a very important factor with regards to successful ignition. If there is a big lump of fuel molecules with no air present between the spark plug electrodes or vice versa, at the time that the spark jumps, there will be no ignition . If the charge between the electrodes is leaner than 20 to 1 or richer than 11 to 1, there is little chance for ignition . Ideally, the molecules throughout the whole charge should be evenly spaced and distributed. This allows for a smooth rate of burn. If the charge is randomly mixed, there will be local variations in flame front propagation rates which will not produce maximum power as these may advance or delay when PCP is achieved. This phenomenon is known as ignition probability.

Charge Turbulence
Because the charge is in constant motion from the valve and port flow characteristics along with inertial effects and piston motion, the mixing of fuel and air molecules is dynamic. From one split second to the next, the actual mixture and molecular distribution changes. This can mean in some instances, that if a very short duration spark was initiated at one instant, the mixture might not ignite, whereas only a half millisecond later, conditions might be perfect for ignition. For this reason, very short duration sparks are undesirable . A long duration spark or multispark ignition system will ensure the highest ignition probability.

Fuel Characteristics
Low compression engines usually run well on low octane fuel because they have relatively low charge densities and the burn rate within these confines is usually predictable. A low compression engine switched to 118-octane race fuel will always lose power unless the ignition advance is increased to compensate for the slower burn rates. Even then, a low CR engine may lose power with the timing optimized for high-octane fuel.

A high compression or turbocharged engine operates with much higher charge densities and consequently faster burn rates. The high-octane fuel permits these rapid burn rates because it has far less tendency to auto ignite and detonate under these conditions. As a result, high compression and turbo engines cannot realize their full hp potential without high-octane fuel.

Inert Effects
Inert effects constitute 2 areas. Residual exhaust gasses left over from the last exhaust stroke tend to dilute the fresh charge and slow down burn rates. Camshaft timing, port flow and exhaust backpressure will affect charge dilution. Nitrogen is the major constituent of air and is essentially inert in the combustion process. Its presence substantially lowers the burn rate but since there is little that we can do about it, it is generally ignored. Nitrous oxide can be injected along with extra fuel to increase charge density as it contains a much higher concentration of oxygen than does air. Oxygen is the essential element in the combustion process.

The second inert effect concerns the relatively cold, metal engine parts in direct contact with the combustion gasses. Combustion will not easily take place in areas where the gas temperatures are well below the ignition temperature. This property is often used to advantage on engines to reduce the tendency to knock.

On many engines, a squish or quench area is used to negate combustion in certain areas to avoid knock. By having a matched area where the piston and combustion chamber come in close proximity at TDC, the gasses are kept cool enough so that they will not ignite until the piston has moved down the bore and cylinder volumes are increasing. This keeps the rate of pressure rise below the knock limit. Some people are dismayed when they install a thicker head gasket to lower the CR and have knocking worse than before. This is because they have negated the designed-in quench effect. A large squish area also tends to promote increased chamber turbulence, which is important for mixing and power at high rpm.

Combustion Chamber Shape and Spark Plug Location
Combustion chambers and spark plug location and the number of plugs will have a marked effect on the time required to complete the combustion process. A large open chamber like a hemi which has a high surface to volume ratio, will combust more slowly than a wedge or modern pent roof chamber simply because it has more cold, metal molecules in contact with the combustion gasses which tends to slow reaction rates. For this reason, these chambers will require that the spark be initiated sooner to achieve PCP at the correct time.

The slowest combusting chamber would be an open chamber with a large bore size and the spark plug at one edge of the chamber. The flame front has a long distance to cover to complete combustion. By placing the plug in the center of the chamber, you halve the distance that the front needs to travel and will be able to reduce the spark advance needed to achieve maximum power. Another solution would be to add another spark plug to create two flame fronts, which would also require much less time to combust. This is the solution in most aircraft engines where big bores and poor fuel distribution and homogeny require solutions to increase ignition probability.

Modern 4 valve engines with shallow pent roof chambers and a central plug location are fast, efficient combustors, requiring minimal advance for maximum power.

Inductive Discharge Coils
Generating the spark on most production automotive systems is accomplished by the coil. Coils have 2 sets of windings, a primary and a secondary. The typical coil will have around 250 turns of wire on the primary and about 25,000 on the secondary for a ratio of 100 to 1. The secondary section often uses an iron core to increase its inductance. Coil resistance on the primary will be from .5 to 2.5 ohms usually and on the secondary, between 5000 and 12,000 ohms.

The inductance and resistance of the coil will determine how quickly a coil can be charged and discharged.

A transistor is used to switch the current flow off and on in the primary coil. When the transistor is switched on, current rapidly builds from 0 to a maximum value determined by the coil inductance and resistance. This current flow induces a magnetic field within the primary. When the current is turned off, this magnetic field collapses which cuts the windings of the secondary coil and induces a high voltage surge.

The output voltage is determined by the rate of field collapse and the windings ratio between primary and secondary. Because the path to ground for the current involves the spark gap, the initial resistance is extremely high. This allows the voltage to build to a very high value until it gets high enough to jump the plug gap. The potential difference must be high enough to first ionize the gas between the electrodes. The ionized gas creates a conductive path for the current to flow. At this point, the arc jumps and current flow is established.

It is important to note that if only 10,000 volts are required to jump a plug gap under a given condition, that will be the maximum delivered. It is also important to note that the spark duration is determined by coil inductance and total resistance of the circuit. Most inductive discharge systems have a spark duration of between 1 and 2 milliseconds.

As cylinder pressure increases, the voltage required to jump the plug gap increases. This is especially true in turbocharged engines under boost. The second problem on high performance engines with high rev limits, is that there is less time to charge the coil with increasing rpm. As such, a high rpm, high output, turbo engine puts greater demands on the ignition system than does a 5000 rpm naturally aspirated engine. Additionally, with a single coil, the more cylinders that you are firing, the less rpm you can run before the spark voltage becomes insufficient to jump the plug gap. A V8 engine would only run to about half the rpm that a 4 would before encountering misfire.

Coil Charge Time and Saturation
The amount of time it takes to charge the coil or bring the current to maximum in the primary windings is called charge time. Input voltage and coil resistance are the main parameters relating to charge time. When the current has reached its maximum value in the primary, it is said to be fully saturated.

If current is applied longer than the time needed to fully saturate the primary, energy is wasted and there is nothing more to be gained. If the current is cut off before saturation is achieved, the maximum spark energy available will be reduced.

Typical coils require charge times of between 2.1 and 6 milliseconds. Obviously, a coil requiring 6 milliseconds to saturate would be unsuitable on a high revving engine as there is not 6 milliseconds available to charge it between discharges at high rpm. For this reason, most performance and racing coils have low primary resistances between .5 and .7 ohms and are fully saturated in less than 3 milliseconds. This permits full coil output at very high rpms.

Most 4 cylinder engines below 200hp/L specific output will run fine below 9000 rpm with a good inductive discharge coil setup.

Capacitive Discharge Ignition
On very high output engines, especially V8 and V12 engines, a single inductive discharge coil is inadequate to supply spark at high rpm and high cylinder pressures. This is where the CD ignition or CDI is used to reduce charge times. The MSD line is very popular worldwide, especially on American V8 engines fitted with distributors.

In normal inductive discharge coils, only 12-14 volts is available from the battery to charge the primary. The CDI charges capacitors to store a high voltage kick to fire to the primary side, putting between 30 and 500 volts onto the primary windings, which reduces the charge time substantially. A coil that would take 3 milliseconds to become fully saturated with 12 volts is now fully saturated in less than 1 with a CDI. The same engine now will be able to turn twice the rpm and experience a major increase in cylinder pressure before encountering misfire.

A slight drawback to CDIs are their shorter spark discharge times although it is better to have a shorter spark rather than no spark. One other concern when using a CDI and a distributor especially ones having closely spaced wire terminals is the possibility of cross firing. This may happen when the coil voltage is so high that the spark will jump to adjacent terminals, which can be very destructive. Most high output CDI systems will also run a larger diameter cap to reduce this possibility. Ignition rotor life may also be somewhat reduced.

Some CDIs also include a multispark function where more than 1 spark is generated after the first spark. This improves ignition probability but it is usually discontinued above 3000 rpm because there just isn't enough time available to make this useful. If the first spark didn't ignite the mixture at 8000 rpm, the 3rd spark a few milliseconds later would light off the mixture very late, leading to PCP occurring late with little useful power being delivered. Igniting late is probably better than not at all though.

One company who makes CDIs claims that their system cures all misfires among other dubious benefits. This is a physical impossibility as we have seen above that many factors could contribute to a misfire, which are totally outside the realm of the ignition system. An over rich or over lean condition or broken parts cannot be fixed by ANY CDI system.

Many CDIs also claim increased fuel economy, which is unlikely as well. Besides the high rpm coil saturation advantages, perhaps the only other one would be greater resistance to plug fouling. However on modern, well tuned engines in proper repair, plug fouling is really a thing of the past anyway.

Direct Ignition
Commonly known as DIS. Most DIS units are of the inductive discharge type. They use a double ended, isolated coil which fires one cylinder on the compression stroke and one on the exhaust stroke simultaneously. This is referred to as a waste spark strategy.

The advantages of DIS are the elimination of the distributor and the associated rotor to terminal air gap and moving parts, plus the addition of twice the number coils so that one can be charged while the other is discharging. This feature allows DIS to produce a very powerful spark up to around 10,000 rpm.

The disadvantage of the waste spark strategy is that the coils are firing at twice the frequency needed, which reduces the charge time window at extreme rpm. DIS systems will usually fire the plugs on any engine up to 10,000 rpm and 300hp/L specific output.

Coil on Plug
The latest, greatest ignition, is the coil on plug setup (COP). This method uses a small inductive discharge coil clipped directly to each spark plug. It eliminates plug wires entirely and does not usually use the waste spark strategy so it has twice the amount of time available to saturate. This basically doubles the RPM capability of the system over other ignition systems. This is the system used in FI and Indy Car engines, which generate outputs of over 300hp/L and 16,000 rpm.

Many new top line production engines are starting to use COP.

Ignition Wires
The purpose of the ignition wires is to conduct the maximum coil output energy to the spark plugs with a minimum amount of radiated electromagnetic interference (EMI) and radio frequency interference (RFI). On most street applications using digital computers for engine management control, excessive EMI and even RFI can interfere with ECUs and cause running problems.

There are 3 basic types of conductors used in automotive applications: Carbon string, solid and spiral wound. Most production engines come equipped with carbon string or spiral wound. The solid core types are used exclusively for racing, mainly with carbureted engines because they offer no EMI or RFI suppression. They generally have a low resistance stainless steel conductor. These types are rapidly losing favor, even in racing circles.

The carbon string type is the most common and work just fine in most stock type applications. The conductor is usually a carbon impregnated fiberglass multistrand. Suppression qualities are fine with resistances in the 5K to 10K ohms per foot. They are cheap and reliable for 2 to 5 years usually, then they may start to break down and should be replaced. High voltage racing ignitions will likely hasten their demise.

The spiral wound type is probably the best type for any application. The better brands offer excellent suppression, relatively low resistance and don't really wear out. Construction quality and choice of material vary widely between brands.

Vitek Performance offers wire sets for almost every application. Vitek Performance makes OEM, their High Performance wire, and their Ultra Series fiberglass braided heat resistant wire with the best characteristics in the industry. These are reasonably priced for the quality you are getting and proven worldwide over many years under extreme conditions.

Some amount of resistance is required along with proper construction to achieve high suppression levels. Resistance is also important to avoid damaging some types of coils and amplifiers due to flyback and coil harmonics. Beware of wires claiming to have very low resistance. These cannot have good suppression qualities.

Lately, some truly "magic" wires have come onto the market claiming to not only increase power but also to shorten the spark duration from milliseconds to nanoseconds. As we have seen above, spark duration is determined primarily by coil inductance and coil resistance so these wires cannot shorten the spark duration by the amount claimed . The wire resistance has a minimal effect on discharge time because of the high voltage involved. We have also seen above that a very short duration spark is in fact detrimental to ignition because of lower probability.

These same wires claim to increase flame front propagation rates and the ability to ignite over- rich mixtures for more power. We have again seen that once ignited, the mixture undergoes the flagregation process and that the progression rate of the flame front is totally independent of the spark. We have also learned above that most gasolines will not ignite nor burn at air fuel ratios richer than 11 to 1, period, and that maximum power is actually achieved at around 12 to 1 AFR so the second claim also has no basis in fact.

These wires use a braided metal shield over the main conductor, which is grounded to the chassis. This arrangement offers poor suppression because it does not cover the entire conductor. Any energy leaking out of the main conductor by induction is actually wasted to ground and will not make it to the spark plug. These wires also have very low resistance which as we have seen above, can have a detrimental effect on coils and ignition amplifiers due to severe flyback effects which are normally dampened by circuit resistance.

Other claims for these wires include current flows of up to 1000 amps. The current flow in the ignition circuit is determined by the coil construction and drive circuits, not by the ignition wires . Most ignition systems are current limited to between 5 and 15 amps. The most powerful race systems rarely exceed 30 amps. To flow current at 1000 amps, you would require #0 welding cable for the ignition system!

For more info on wires: http://www.vitekperformance.com

Spark Plugs
The last part in the ignition system is the spark plug itself. The average plug consists of steel shell which threads into the cylinder head, a ceramic insulator, an iron or copper core leading to a nickel or platinum center electrode and a ground electrode of similar material. The spark jumps between the center and ground electrode. Certain special application plugs may have multiple ground electrodes.

Different heat ranges are available depending on application. For constant high power applications, a colder than stock plug is usually selected to keep internal temperatures within limits.

Again, many "magic" plugs come onto the market from time to time expounding the virtues of their incredible new design, usually offering more hp of course. Split electrode plugs are a waste of money because the spark will only jump to one of the electrodes at a time in any case.

You will find that most reputable engine builders in the higher forms of racing use pretty standard NGK, Bosch or Champion plugs with pretty standard electrode setups. A properly selected, standard plug will easily last 25,000 miles of hard use in most engines. A platinum tipped plug will easily last twice as long on most engines. There just isn't any rocket science here. Modern spark plugs coupled to modern ignition systems in a modern engine are extremely cheap and reliable. In most cases, on street performance and even race engines, a $2, off the shelf, NGK plug will work just fine.

Wild Claims
If you see an ad for any ignition system component claiming substantial power increases over stock, beware. Most of these claims are total bullshit with no basis in fact. Even if the seller advertises a money back guarantee, you will still be responsible for shipping the product back to them and probably a restocking fee. These companies rely on hype and unsubstantiated claims to sell their products to a predominantly gullible buying public. These people count on the fact that you will probably not time your vehicle's acceleration before and after installation. The seat of the pants "feel" of "increased" acceleration after installing the latest $400 trick gadget is usually enough to sell most people.

If your engine runs clean to redline with the modifications that you have done, it is very questionable that you will make it any faster by modifying the ignition system. If you encounter a high rpm miss at full throttle, there is a good chance that something needs replacing or upgrading.

If you must buy something, stick to reputable manufacturers making reasonable product claims. Steer clear of any company using hype and hard sell tactics and ones claiming vastly increased power or fuel economy. This just does not happen in the real world.

If you see a company making wild claims in their ads, do everyone a favor in the industry as well as the buying public; report them to the Federal Trade Commission.

Update 12/24/02

Just printing a rebuttal to comments made on a page http://yarchive.net/car/engine_control.html. A writer quoted a paragraph on the article above:
"A high compression or turbocharged engine operates with much higher charge densities and consequently faster burn rates. The high-octane fuel permits these rapid burn rates because it has far less tendency to auto ignite and detonate under these conditions. As a result, high compression and turbo engines cannot realize their full hp potential without high octane fuel."

The response of the expert was " He has this kinda muddled. Fast burn rates, as induced by modern high swirl combustion chamber designs result in LOWER octane requirements and less spark lead."

The author perhaps does not read English very well despite his apparent higher education. Nowhere does my statement address modern combustion chambers or spark advance, it simply states that all things being equal, turbocharged and high compression atmospheric engines CANNOT reach their full hp potential on low octane fuel. This is simple fact, not conjecture. You can screw with ignition advance all you want, the fact remains that maximum power will be achieved at a certain timing value. If the octane rating is too low to permit this timing value without detonation, the engine MUST make less hp than it could with proper fuel and advance. This whole article and in fact all Tech articles on this site address performance and racing applications mainly. We all know that advances in chamber design has allowed compression ratios to be increased on the same types of engines from a decade ago in the stock world. This has limited effect on the racing world on 14 to 1 CR engines and turbo charged applications, which always use high-octane fuels.

The author goes on goes on to make a comment that "water injection has a power penalty associated with its use."

This statement needs qualification. This is true only on atmospheric engines, CERTAINLY NOT on turbocharged engines. Water injection permits higher BMEPs with the same fuel octane. Very well proven by Harry Ricardo way back in 1933 and documented in his groundbreaking text " The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine". Water injection was extensively used in WWII and post war supercharged and turbocharged aircraft engines for increased takeoff and combat power. It was later applied on F1 and WRC cars.

Many facts about combustion, ignition, emissions and fuels from this era were lost, forgotten or ignored by the automotive world decades later. The industry spent billions re-discovering what was already well known and documented before in the aero engine industry. There are several excellent texts including "Power Plants for Aircraft" by Joseph Liston 1953, which readers might find interesting.

02/12/03 Update
Be aware that many Japanese spec engines are designed to run on 98-102 octane fuel in their home markets. These engines will not be able to run the same boost levels on North American 92 octane fuel. Expect lots of detonation or spark retard if you attempt this.

02/17/03
I received another E-mail recently from a reader regarding the rebuttal above and ongoing combustion research. Again, I reiterate, this article addresses real world conditions on existing real world, production engines, not experimental designs running in a lab. This reader discusses "negative work" in conventional chambers where the piston is compressing an expanding mixture. A finite amount of time must pass between the point of spark discharge and the point at which the cylinder pressure exceeds the compression line if graphically plotted. This is the ignition delay period and cannot happen instantaneously in ANY chamber. This is the reason for spark advance. In most engines, only the period after about 10 degrees BTDC will have pressure above the compression line. This pressure at TDC is only a small fraction of what PCP rises to at 20-30 degrees ATDC so while slightly counter productive in one respect is also a necessity in the process. Obviously, if we could speed the combustion process so that we could delay the spark until 10 BTDC and achieve nothing above the compression line until after TDC and still achieve PCP at 20-30 ATDC, we could gain HP and efficiency. This condition does NOT exist in current production, mass produced engines. Research is being done to bring this to reality sometime in the future. Detonation IS a REAL concern in all turbocharged production type engines running relatively low octane fuels.

R.F.





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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by Finnpaso »

higgy, I think, that nowbody dont want to ask anything about this thing anymore... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

But You forget to write: "MORE details can be found by sending email to my private mailbox"... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by higgy »

Could be, in my experience people do what they want anyway :phone:
The important thing to take away from this discussion is don't use a higher octane than is required to avoid constant pinging or any knock Not only will it be a waste of money but it will shorten your engine life.
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by DesmoDog »

higgy wrote:BTW, Boyles law has everything to do with internal combustion engines in this universe, ICE's after all use air to provide the force that moves you and I down the road to our destination.The fuel is simple the agent that heats the air causing it to expand. It is the mechanical properties of the engine relative to time and pressure that determine the fuel.
It's been almost 30 years since my last thermodynamics class so I looked up Boyles law as a refresher.

Boyles law realtes to the relationship between volume and pressure. It assumes a constant temp.

"Boyle’s law states that at constant temperature, the absolute pressure and the volume of a gas are inversely proportional. The law can also be stated in a slightly different manner, that the product of absolute pressure and volume is always constant."

BTW - I'm going to try to be brief with my responses. I'm not trying to be smartass or anything, I've just gotten rather busy and haven't got the tmie to ramble on. (I can hear the colelctive sighs of the other readers as I type this) :lol:

Along those lines, I'd like to keep in mind my original point was higher octane gas does not burn slower to control knock.
-Craig
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Re: New 906 owner needs gas, fuel suggestions for the U.S.

Post by DesmoDog »

higgy wrote:And THIS has me really confused:
Quote:
Two plugs,two flame fronts propagating burning the complete charge faster not faster flame propagation

Why confused? Two plugs,you ignite the fuel at two points in the charge, each point propagates at the same speed but the entire charge gets burned in half the time.
For example,if you take a jug and poke a hole in it the water will leak out at a certain speed. if you you poke a second hole in it
while each hole will leak at the same speed,because there are now two holes it will be empty in half the time as one hole.
Read further into my response. That part I get. The part I dont get is why it would be beneficial to burn the mix faster with dual plugs, yet also beneficial to burn the fuel slower with a slower flame speed. Flame fronts don't create shock waves, explosions do.
-Craig
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