ducatipaso.org

Hi everybody

In what follows I would like to lay down my experience with the AVON Azaro combination and the Paso 906. My Paso is build in 1990 and still in an original status. This summer my 2004 Michelin had been at its end. To compare before and after, here are two pictures of the bike with the old tires:





I am certainly not the only one who is using this AVON combination but I think it is a useful information for the once that currently face the Paso tire problem and did not make up their mind what to do next.
The tires in focus are Azaro AV 45 and 46. Cf. http://www.avon-tyres.co.uk/motorcycle/azaro-st

Background

See original tires are no longer available. There is no chance that anybody (including Michelin) will produce such tires again. Primary options are:

• Conversion to 17" wheels (infos can be found, e.g., here http://forums.ducatipaso.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1291)
• Use 130/70 and 180/60 on the original 16" wheels (CB from New Zealand provided very good infos here: http://forums.ducatipaso.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3872). Of course, there is even more information availiable here in the forum.
• Use 130/70 and 150/80 on the original 16" wheels

Approval from Ducati Germany for the AVON Azaro combination

Ducati Germany gave an approval for the AVON Azaro AV 45 / 46 combination in August 2010. I phoned with the responsible person, Mr. Liedman. He told me that they did an extensive testing even up to a speed of 200 km/h with the Paso 906 of vee2doc (he is also on this forum). They closely worked together with AVON. In his opinion it is a very good combination for the Paso – much better than the original Michelin and better than all other 150/80 and 130/70 combos. They did not see any problem using a 150/80 tire on a 5” wheel (the tire is recommended for max. 4,25) – see also the info above.

What to consider when mounting the AVON Azaro

• Chain needs to have at minimum 108 parts (520 DID)
• I paid 320 sfr for the tires (200 euro); mounting the tire is no problem (no inner tube or something is needed)
• I used the sprocket combination 15 (front) / 40 (rear) - other combinations may not work cf. final remarks above
• Excenter position - see picture; if you choose this excenter position, the bike will be 12 mm higher front and back (this is why I used it in order not to chance the geometry of the bike); if you want to follow this way, you first have to install the wheel in this position and then fix the chain – not the other way around because you cannot move the wheel 360 around in the excenter – collision with the front of the swingarm.
• In this excenter position (cf. pictures), the distance to the swingarm (front of the tire) is > 10 mm (which is enough, I mailed again Mr Liedman and he wrote me that > 5 mm should be fine)
• Frond guard needs to be lifted for 10 mm
• Side and central stand work without modification, but are less stable and the rear tire is touching the ground and hence cannot be moved when the bike is on the central stand
• I checked the speedo with GPS: In my case everything it is still fine 50 km/h = 49 (real); 100 = 99; 120 = 118

Driving experience

Before the snow came, I did 500 km in October, experiences are very positive. Very stable under heavy breaking. Much easier to get the bike in the corner. Bike is not standing up when breaking in the corner any more, much more grip. Bike fells much better in all tested situations. Even breaking distance could be improved.

Pros and cons of this combination

Pros:
• These AVONs are made for a sport tourer – not a cruiser Harley / Gold Wing type nor a race / supersport bike – I think the tire characteristics are very suitable for the PASO
• Tires have a ZR rating
• It is a matching pair
• Approval from Ducati Germany (German TÜV / Swiss MFK accept this conversion)
• Personal experience with theses tires on the Paso are excellent
• Very easy to fix compared to the other options
• No real chances need to be done to the bike
• For the handling of the bike (which is excellent know) I think it to be better not to use a very wide rear tire (like 180/60) – however, we do not have much options, I know

Cons:
• The 150/80 is made for a 4,25 wheel maximum (Paso 5). When the tire is mounted on the 5” rear rim it has exactly the wideness of the old Michelin 160 / 60 (I measured 162 mm). Hence, the edge of the tire will come “earlier” which could be a problem if you “heavily lay” you Paso in the corner (this point has been mentioned by pompeio and other in this forum). I could not test it in details but this picture shows that I had been quite far away from the edge of the tire so far.



I personally believe that you first scratch with the stand or the exhausts on the ground before you are on the edge of the tire but I am not 100% sure – and I did not want to test it so far. Mr Liedman from Ducati Germany does not see this point as a problem.
• Very little place left to adjust the chain (this problem should be solved if one uses the “halfrings” from the NL)
• Looks of the bike (actually I think it looks better than I thought it would but the higher profile of the tires can easily be see if you know this Ducati model well)

Final remarks

I think it is a quick and easy solution, that is why I did not go the conversion CB did (I first had plans to do so). I think it is a very good solution. The tires will be produced for the next 3 years according to AVON

I used a 14 / 40 sprocket combination on the old Michelin tires. Hence the bike had a very nice acceleration but lower top speed (which I never tried). When the AVONs had been fixed, we tried it with a 14 / 40 combination as well, but since there is very little space left to tighten the chain it did not work. Other like 15 / 41 etc. may also not work. I am only positive with the 15 / 40 combination. Please let me know if you have additional information to this point, With the new tires and the 15 / 40, the conversion of the bike is in my mind “to long”, I would like to chance this when I need a new chain.

To give you an idea, here are some info on this point: Original tires and 15 / 40 (max. speed at 9000 rpm).

1st gear: 77 km/h
2nd gear: 108 km/h
....
6th gear: 220 km/h

AVON Azaro tire and 15 / 40 (max. speed at 9000 rpm):

1st gear: 90 km/h
2nd gear: 126 km/h
...
6th gear: 252 km/h (rather theory)

For instance, 5000 rpm in the 6th gear is know 140 km/h (122 km/h).

Pics after the conversion















Please note that I cleaned the bike – especially for this forum
At least for me, the tire problem is solved for the next couple of years.
All the best, hardo

So Avon has granted the production of those tires only for few years...
Pity!
Ciao

thank you hardo with all the effort to give us this information. i am planning to use these tyres on my 906. i have new 15 and 41 sprockets. i will post my results. i rarely run above 7000 rpm if ever. i much prefer and plan my rides on smaller A and B roads.

hi norman, i am not sure if you can tighten the chain with the 15 / 41 combination and without the "halfrings", you need to see. Sure, I also do not use 9000 rpm on my paso, max. is rather 6000. I just wanted to use it as an illustration that the new tires with 15 / 40 lead to a real "long" gear ratio. It is not per se a disadvantage. All the best hardo

Great to hear a good fix, at least for now. I used the Avon 45/46 tires on my ST (of course the 17" versions) and liked them alot. Very good tire, until they changed it and introduced a new model. That is always the problem with tires, like good shoes. By the time you wear them out, and decide you like them, they change them and make something else. The fact that Michelin made that tire for over 15 years is amazing to me. Most tire models seem to last only about 3-5 years these days, sometimes less.

Cheers,
Phil

persempre907 wrote:So Avon has granted the production of those tires only for few years...
Pity!
Ciao

How do you know that? I would appreciate you not making alarmist comments without proof.

It`s not important at all. The sizes 130/70-16 and 150/80-16 exist for many years already and they will continue to exist as numerous bikes use them. Even if in a few years Avons stops producing the AV45/46 models they will have others and other manufacturers, too. So there`s no concern that either these sizes or even the 180/60-16 will be discontinued. As Phil stated it`s absolutely normal that after a few years there`s a successor tire model so the name may change but not the sizes.

G.

JWilliam wrote:

persempre907 wrote:So Avon has granted the production of those tires only for few years...
Pity!
Ciao

How do you know that? I would appreciate you not making alarmist comments without proof.

For sure, Avon AV 45/46 series is not the last generation of Avon tires.
Besides, I have read that here, only quoting a member's statement.
Finally, as Gerhard told, those tires' sizes have been produced yesterday and will be produced tomorrow.
When I used to have the 906 (more than 15 years ago), my mechanic already suggested to fit a rear 150/80 tire because the 160/60 was getting rare to find.
Ciao

As G. metioned, there will be most probably sets of 130/70 and 150/80 on the market in the future.

However, the avon azaro st do have some advantages: it is a matching pair, it has a zr rating and it has an approval from ducati germany (hence, I am able to pass the technical vehicle inspection without any additional steps here in switzerland). I doubt that all these three points hold true for other 130/70 / 150/80 combos. In addition, mr. liedman from ducati germany told me that the avons performance in his opinion much better on the paso than a metzler or the metzler/bridgestone (again 130/70; 150/80) combos.

When ducati germany came out with the approval, i checked a tire supplier and got the info that the avon azaro st tires in 16" are a phase-out model and will not be produced in the future. I was wondering that ducati came up with a technical approval for a discontinued model. Hence i phoned avon and they told me that this information is wrong and that they have plans to produce this tire at least for three more years (clearly: this is not a guarantee for anything).

All the best, hardo

Can anyone provide a link to a source for half rings and different sprockets for my 906 Paso?

I need a website that's in English so I can read it.

Thanks!

They did not see any problem using a 150/80 tire on a 5” wheel (the tire is recommended for max. 4,25) – see also the info above.

Still funny to me that Avon themselves will not approve it, Ducati does. I had talked to the responsible guy at Avon personally longer time ago and he didn`t know anything about that at that time. I wonder if they talked in the meantime.

Xchoppers, you`ll find some info about the halfrings on the last page of the P750 FAQs. You will not find them on the homepage of the dutch Duc shop though, one will have to ask.

G.

If this nonsense about tyres keeps up I will have a set of race wheels made for it. Think about it, if I can't get a tyre I have to buy a new bike so for £2000 I get new wheels and modern rubber, still cheaper than any modern bike worthy as a replacement.

JW what are you talking about ?! You`re using a 150/80 yourself.

G.

paso750 wrote:

They did not see any problem using a 150/80 tire on a 5” wheel (the tire is recommended for max. 4,25) – see also the info above.

Still funny to me that Avon themselves will not approve it, Ducati does. I had talked to the responsible guy at Avon personally longer time ago and he didn`t know anything about that at that time. I wonder if they talked in the meantime.



Hi G.

Indeed I think that has chanced a bit.

As far as I remember, Mr. Liedman form Ducati Germany told me that they did the testing procedure together with a representive from AVON (this is also how it is stated on the document). I can double check if this is important for this forum. They also had a discussion with AVON (and Michelin too) whether they are willing to produce tires in the original size (they are not).

When I phoned with AVON Germany (cf. thread above), I talked to someone who is familiar with the whole sad Paso tire story and the Azaro alternative.

In addition, if you go on the website of AVON, they give you the AVON ST combo as a suggestion

http://www.avon-tyres.co.uk/motorbike/906-paso

http://www.avon-tyres.co.uk/motorbike/750-paso

(This info on the AVON webpage is quite new, it came up in September 2010; hence I think they are is some kind of accountability - besides Ducati - if they put such infos on there webpage)

All the best, Hardo

JWilliam wrote:If this nonsense about tyres keeps up I will have a set of race wheels made for it. Think about it, if I can't get a tyre I have to buy a new bike so for £2000 I get new wheels and modern rubber, still cheaper than any modern bike worthy as a replacement.

When I faced the tire problem I had plans to get rid of the Paso and buy a new Ducati. I looked at alle the models, but besider the Monster 696, I did not like the looks of any model. I started to like the Paso suddenly more and more and decided that the Paso belongs to the street - the model has really become very seldom on the road nowadays and I still like the way it feels and the polarizing looks. All the best HArdo