ducatipaso.org

Well I've had the P750 for almost 5 weeks now and have put a few miles on it to help us both get acquainted. It is running on well-treaded but old Michelin A59/M59 tyres and I just wondered if anyone out there can give me an indication whether what I am experiencing is 'normal'?

Firstly - The bike's steeering is fairly heavy, in as much as it feel like it takes a big effort to turn the bars compared to my modern BMW. It isnt notchy so there doesnt appear to be a steering head bearing issue. My best description is that it is almost like comparing driving a car with power steering to one without. Is this just due to the geometry of the bike?

Secondly - when turning at slow speeds the front wheel feels like it wants to turn in on itself into the corner, really quite an unpleasant feeling that requires application of positive steering action to resist. Is this a function of 16" tyres? At higher speeds when cornering there is still a slight feeling of this, to the extent that I feel like I am consciously countersteering to balance it out. Everythiing looks square though have yet to give it a thorough check. Is this just due to tyres again?

In a straight line the bike feels really planted and stable, and sounds wonderful, but the vagueness in any turn is really quite disconcerting. I'm not aiming to try and be a scratcher on this bike, but I'd like a greater sense of confidence in it. I am going to change the tyres soon but wondered how much of what I am experiencing is intrinsic to the bike and its design, and how much is down to having old, tired, black circles!

Graeme

To be fair its a long time since I actually rode mine but I always found mine very stable in corners and reasonably easy to turn but definitely required a positive input. To be fair I think that's common to all Ducatis though.
Braking in even the slightest hint of a corner with the front brake can lead to some amusing "close encounters of the foliage kind"
Check the basics first, the position of the excentrics ?
Mine always worked best with the axle at its lowest point.

Do you actually have acceptable damping from both the front and back end ?

Set the preload properly. The bike should sag about 20 to 30 percent of its travel when you sit on it and its settled

Set all suspension adjustments to their mid points (or factory settings)

Check tyre pressures

Ride, test and adjust one thing at a time

Its the old tires- for sure...

It is a wide 16 inch tire issue period. Has nothing to do with any other geometry and not common to any other Ducati. FYI early Honda 750 Interceptors had the same issue to an extent and a few other bikes of note.

It takes experience and a positive attitude in corners. You must know your line and stick to it, not explore it. You can change your line and brake mid corner but you need to know what to expect and shall we say be determined. It is a far cry from the normal confidence inspiring ( every other) Ducati. This Ducati (750/906 Paso and the 750 sport) requires, no make that expects and demands confidence. It is not your normal Ducati nor is it everyone's cup of tea.
As far as braking in corners and braking in general you need to know what the bike will do before you do it so that you can make the proper judgement before executing, not as an after thought. Any thing less will get the novice and many experienced riders in trouble fairly quickly. In my NSHO these bikes are the Rogue Stallion in a line of Thoroughbreds. There is no substitute. They are the most exhilarating of all the Paso's and rare among Ducati's in general Taming the beast with carb substitutions and tyre changes will forever change the charecter of this Stallion, I for one will mourn its passing into the history books, lost forever except to a few of us who will do what it takes to keep its original character alive as long as humanly possible
Regardless of what my dear freind Antti may think

as Duc750 already mentioned, I would be checking the tyre pressure...
seems like you're riding with low pressure on the front, my2cw

I dont think it is a front tyre pressure issue as am definitely running with the recommended tyre pressures However at 16 stone I could perhaps go up a couple of p.s.i. to offset being such a fat lump so will give that a try to see if it makes a difference. Will also double check eccentrics etc as mentioned.

It isnt the force to turn the bike at speed that I am noticing most, it is the feeling that the front wheel of the bike wants to go on rotating into the turn and therefore I have a feeling of having to countersteer to correct this (I know sometimes have to countersteer to initiate a more rapid steeering reaction into a turn but this inst the same). This was why I was wondering about the 16" wheel.

Graemer57 wrote:It isnt the force to turn the bike at speed that I am noticing most, it is the feeling that the front wheel of the bike wants to go on rotating into the turn and therefore I have a feeling of having to countersteer to correct this

Graeme...Im not sure if your bike wants to turn corners too easily or if you need to fight with the steering (countersteer) to initiate the turn...
on my 907 with the old tyres, I had to use a fair bit of countersteer to initiate the turn, but with the new tyres (different profile) I had to get used to the different behaviour, as now it really wants to lay down into a corner and feels much more predictable...I didnt think tyres alone could improve the feel of a bike so much.

907 is a different animal than the 906. Totally different in its handling characteristics with the Michelins. Even if you had the exact same bike with the 16 inch wheels and put 17 inch wheels on it,thy would have nothing in common handling wise or braking wise in cornering

Keep in mind as well that if you change to the slightly higher prfile Avons as per your other thread that will probably quicken things up too but seriously though make sure there's a good base line on the suspension settings.

Also keep in mind that you will always countersteer twice in a corner once in, once out otherwise you'd constantly go around in a circle.

All other things being equal the bike will go around a corner much better without you on it so it could be rider input that's causing it

also
to turn a bike to the left at anything above a slow speed you steer the bars to the right and vice versa

All other things being equal the bike will go around a corner much better without you on it so it could be rider input that's causing it

No it won't

Ok to put it another way

In general highside comes from rider input- incorrect throttle use.
Lowside comes from incorrect braking
Running wide either comes from incorrect braking or coming off the throttle and overloading the front tire.

So tell me which of those common issues in a corner are caused by the bike and which by the rider?

The slow steering might well be down to the steering head bearing grease having dried up. Trouble is the 'collar' can't be readily tightened up once loose so the typical owner leaves it alone. I laid my 906 up for a few years and when I got it out for a ride the steering was positively dangerous. A custom 24mm x 1mm thread with 36mm Hex is easy enough for your local engineer to make - I can even supply you with a drawing. When you have got that made then chuck that strange steering head bush away and add "Head bearing - clean and repack" to the regular service options.

So tell me which of those common issues in a corner are caused by the bike and which by the rider?

the rider of course for all. A bike by itself will go in the same direction it was headed till some external force is imposed. Once the wheels leave the ground it will go straight as an arrow

In general highside comes from rider input- incorrect throttle use.
Lowside comes from incorrect braking
Running wide either comes from incorrect braking or coming off the throttle and overloading the front tire.

nope never happen

Graeme
the front tyre will be the biggest culprit. Not only is the tyre old but it's also old technology. I race my 750 sport and use a Bridgestone 016 or 014, 130/70/16 and it steers beautifully. very neutral and very light to change directions. once the bike is cranked over, you can almost take your hands off the bars and it just sits there.
Pretty sure the geometry between the paso & sport is not that much different so i'm sure your paso will respond just the same.