Dunlop D250 180/60R 16 fitted

[Tamburinifan]

You mean the sizes or the mix of brands ?

Mainly sizes as I understood CB has Dunlop on both front & rear.
But models & brands are also interesting, would be so nice if some combination
finally works f all 16" Pasos, both looks & on the road.
This combo looks OK & seems like they`re working.

[Colonial Boy]

CB, I printed out the entire thread and I went over it with Duane at the shop, and he reckons your mod won't work on my bike - at all, under any circumstances. That's because there's no way to move the chain 10mm outboard because it will contact the frame of the bike after about 5mm! Also, the chain guide would need to be shifted, and (as you've done) mods to the center stand would also be required. He reckons that at 10mm it'll eat a whole in your frame, and you won't notice "because it'll sound like normal chain noise."

Because of this, I am *not* just going to blindly follow the process you've used, but let my engineer check it out for himself and come up with a solution.

I took my Paso for its WoF yesterday afternoon and checked out the thread to report to those who have shown an interest. I was surprised to find a lengthy contribution from Mobius saying it's not possible to shift the chain 10mm. Aparently "Duane at the shop" knows better than me. Now I'm willing to admit an error - I've made plenty of them - but I need a little more information from "Duane" before I undo the work I've done. Where exactly on the frame is the chain going to "eat a whole"? I wondered if I'd made some massive blunder and overlooked something so I had a good look at the chain and the frame and I can't see where it is touching - never mind eating it. Wondering if there was something I couldn't see, I came up with a plan: I folded up a piece of cardboard, sat it on the chain and turned the rear wheel to follow its progress:



The cardboard made it all the way forward to the front sprocket. I tried it on the top of the chain with the same result. Then I thought maybe with my weight on the bike it may hit somewhere, so I sat on it and got my long-suffering wife to crawl on her hands and knees alongside to watch the piece of cardboard and report if it got jammed. It didn't, on the top or bottom. By looking along the chain and using this method with the cardboard I cannot for the life of me see where the chain is hitting.

Mctool may be right when he wonders if our bikes were not standard to begin with. That is why I checked my chain alignment before I started.

I think you are right to not "blindly" follow the process I have used. The internet is full of mis-information presented as fact. However, I have documented and illustrated the process I used on my bike for those who are interested in attempting a similar fix. Mobius I'm sure your engineer in Rangiora is vastly experienced and may have an alternative solution but as far as I can see, your main objection is the cost of modifying a rear sprocket every time it needs to be replaced. I think any capable machine shop should be able to bore out a sprocket and deepen the bolt hole recesses in an hour. A current charge-out rate where I live in NZ for that would be $60 - $80. I don't consider that a good reason for running a chain out of line.

For those thinking that letting the chain rub the lip on the tyre sidewall will do no harm, here is the 160/70/16 that was on my Paso when purchased:



While pushing the bike in the shed the chain was being flicked up and down each time it rode over the ridges. I would hate to have seen it running!

Manufacturing tolerances and previous modifications may have made differences in the set-ups of our Pasos. I suggest that if you are considering moving your chain over on your bike - whether 10mm or whatever - first check your chain alignment and measure the clearance to whatever might get in the way - not forgetting the centre stand.
That way you should be able to discover clearance issues before they occur.

By the way Mobius, I'm interested that your Metzeler M3 is a 130/60/16 and is taller than the original Michelin 130/60/16. Please confirm.

CB

[Mc tool]

I forgot to say , even with that "eaten away " frame your bike does look good with those tyres fitted.

[Colonial Boy]

I forgot to say , even with that "eaten away " frame your bike does look good with those tyres fitted.

Thanks Mc tool. It rides nice too

I took it out to my friendly WoF tester and talked over the conversion and the Paso's heavy steering at manoeuvring speed. Having said that, I am quickly getting used to being a little more careful at the bottom of my drive and from there on the bike feels perfect. Luckily a vastly experienced bike modifier I know was there changing a tyre and we talked pressures. Both agreed 34psi each was probably a better stating point so they were adjusted prior to the test ride.

I was under the impression my tester had ridden a Paso before but I was mistaken. He has ridden many bikes however - lots of Ducatis included - but it seems Pasos are pretty rare around here. However after the usual safety inspection, he set off on his circuit and I eagerly waited his return with fingers crossed. All was good. He was mostly impressed by how smooth it was and the handling was entirely acceptible. He wondered if the front fork oil was too heavy as it felt a bit hard under normal riding but said this may just be a Paso trait

In short he considered the bike felt fine, looked great, and was happy to issue a WoF. I rode straight to the nearest Post Shop and celebrated by buying 12 months rego. It is so nice to have the bike finally ready for use.

Cheers,

CB

[Mobius]

Hey CB, I think McTool is correct. Our setups were different from the outset. The damage to the 160 tyre you show is EXACTLY the same as the damage to my 180 tyre with my setup as-purchased! I got my VIN and warrant over the last couple of days, and selected the plate (from a stack they had there) of A1DFN, which I translate as "A1 Deafen" or "A1 Ducati Fan" - both very appropriate!

Everyone I have shown the setup to has said the same thing; "Forget about it, it's fine." But I will take it off the road during winter, and get the rear sprocket moved about 2mm. The rear wheel is completely straight and true according to Duane. This was confirmed by my engineer buddy when I took it out to see him after Vinning.

I can confirm too, that the steering *is* very heavy on the inside bar at *very* low speeds (i.e. walking speed), and that you do really need to push hard on it to stop what feels like a tendency to "tuck in". However at anything over about 10 klicks, it feels just fine.

I have bedded in the brake pads and discs with around 100 klicks of gentle riding, and am extremely surprised by how hard I can push the rear brake by itself, or in conjunction with the front brake. I have not managed to lock the rear, even trying to provoke it. The new front M3 Sportec feels very confidence inspiring. That's as it should be surely? The compound should be light years ahead of the old Michelin.

So, the bike seems to be running very well indeed, and I am EXTREMELY happy with the way it rides. The clutch still makes some horrendous noises, if I am not very very careful with it launching, so I may do somethign about that over winter, if possible. Below are the pics of the thing; and remember, all that's been done is to fit the tyres, and raise the front guard about 8mm.

Profile view with the new 130/60/16 and 180/60/16 tyres. Looks not too bad I think!


Read shot, showing monster rear rubber. Sidestand is stock standard. Lean seems acceptable.


Front wheel showing new stainless discs. Feels good!


How the chain contacts the tyre - only *just*. The "flap" in the upper mudguard needed to be bent outwards a bit.


Chain guard misses tye by about 0.5mm.

[Mc tool]

7.5 weight oil is supposed to be the go , according to the local guru , and it worked for me

[Colonial Boy]

7.5 weight oil is supposed to be the go , according to the local guru , and it worked for me

Thanks - I will try it.

[Colonial Boy]

Hey CB, I think McTool is correct. Our setups were different from the outset.

Mobius I'd still like to know how our chain clearance seems to be so different.
(a) Does your front sprocket have an offset, and if so how much and which way is it fitted?
(b) Is your rear sprocket original?

You continue to describe your Metzeler M3 as a 130/60/16 when I can only find 130/70ZR16s listed on supplier's websites. Please confirm what your tyre size is.

Cheers, CB

[hardo]

Hi CB

You really did a great documentation and fantastic for all the Paso community. Thanks a lot!

My opinion regarding a few points mentioned in this thread:

I am very sure that Metzler newer produced a 130/60 16, it must be a 130/70 16 (produced for the Honda Fireblade)

In 2006, I bought a pair of the original Michelin (they were still available) with DOT 2004. In 2006 when the tires were not really old and with lots of profile, I could easily lock up the rear wheel when breaking hard at any speed on a try road. Hence, what Mobius told us (an in a way you too) seems to me a could result that this 180 / 60 do not lock up right away under breaking (good news). Sure it would be interesting how the tire behaves in the case it rains.

I bought the 905 Paso from the first owner in 2005 (hence, I am not sure if everything is real original ( even though it looks like almost new). Clearly, the chain and the sprocket had been replaced before I bought the bike. However, in my case, everything seems exactly the way you described it. I did quite a lot of measurements around the bike the last couple of days. I am very sure that I have the 10 mm space to move the chain. I expect problems with the central stand too (but nothing else. I taked to different people (a Ducati dealer, he still has the same bike at home and knows the problems very well) and with two tire companies. Beside the combinations of two tires that are made for very different kind of bikes (however there is not better option) both told me that they see one problem: the gearbox (exit) will face a little more pressure when switching the front sprocket. Both expects told me that this should not cause real problems as long as you do not use the power of the bike all the time.

Two questions:

Was there a specific reason why you but the excenter down again?
I do not have this mutflap fitted as it is on your bike. cf.: http://forums.ducatipaso.org/viewtopic. ... 2&start=45
Do you expect any problems with the 130/70 Dunlop? The speedo cable is fixed on the front fender with the same attachment that is fixed on your mutflap.

[Colonial Boy]

Two questions:

Was there a specific reason why you but the excenter down again?
I do not have this mutflap fitted as it is on your bike. cf.: http://forums.ducatipaso.org/viewtopic. ... 2&start=45
Do you expect any problems with the 130/70 Dunlop? The speedo cable is fixed on the front fender with the same attachment that is fixed on your mutflap.

Hi Hardo,

Thanks for your kind words about this topic! I hope it will encourage 906 owners to modify their bikes in a way that will accept whatever 180s are available in the future. I think it would be a waste to modify it 2-3mm then find the next tyre available is slightly wider and will rub again!

I hope Mobius will come back and support his claim this conversion will not work on all 906s.

Thankyou for your experience with the original Michelins. Very interesting! I really think for everyday use this combo will prove at least as safe as the original and probably better. Those who race bikes and ride them near the limit will no doubt say it is not right but at least it allows us to still ride them.

I guess I will have the opportunity eventually to see how it performs in the wet but I will wait until the tyres have worn in a bit. But I won't be pushing the limits having just spent a lot of money on bodywork and paint.

As for the output shaft, I would hope Ducati designed it with a little reserve for strength. If they have a habit of breaking under hard treatment I would be worried. Has anyone broken an output shaft?

And now your questions:

I put the excenter down again as I had to extend the stand legs anyway and wanted the chain to run in the same line as original - even though further out.

The 130/70 is a tight fit inside the mudguard width wise. There would have been no clearance on the knob on the back of the speedo cable loop where it protrudes through the guard. My guard did have the hole for it as original. The mudflap gets around this well and offers a bit of protection to the front cylinder and fairing.

Other than a bit of initial rubbing of the tyre on the sides of the guard I can see no problem with the 130/70 - and it feels good at speed.

Please feel free to ask for any more info or photos that may help.

Cheers, CB

[paso750]

Beside the combinations of two tires that are made for very different kind of bikes (however there is not better option)

?! The Avons are a matching pair.

Has anyone broken an output shaft?

I doubt that will happen. What could happen though is that the output shaft seal fails and starts leaking some oil.

Mobius, as mentioned in the "how to upload pics thread" could you please keep your pics to 800x600 max. ? thx.

G.

[Colonial Boy]

Beside the combinations of two tires that are made for very different kind of bikes (however there is not better option)

?! The Avons are a matching pair.

G.

Are the Avons both made for a Sports or a Cruiser?

CB

[paso750]

well let`s say they are at least not a special development for a Honda 1800 only.

front
http://www.avon-tyres.co.uk/motorcycle/azaro-st
rear
http://www.avon-tyres.co.uk/motorcycle/cobra

Avon send me a certificate of compliance for this combination. The tires should work well on customs, sport tourers and similar according to them.

G.

[hardo]

Dear Paso 750 + CB

I am not totally convinced that the Avon combination is a matching pair (and other are not).

I talked to Metzler, Dunlop and a provider who sells all the available 180/60 16s.
They told me the same story:
There is no bike that requires a 130/70 16 and a 180/60 16. Hence no road test (as far as they know) had been done to check this combination on a bike (including a Paso). What works best is unknown so far.
There is not a "sport tourer" - similar to a Paso - on the market that needs a 180/60 16 (also not in the past). These tires are only needed for very heavy Harleys and the Honda Gold Wing 1800 (and maybe some custom bikes). It may be nice to have a certificate from Avon (especially for TÜV) - this is an advantage - but that depends more on the corporate governance of that specific producer. E.g., Metzler and Dunlop will only give such a certificate if they had done road testing with this combination on a Paso. Of the record, the person from Metzler told me, that he believes that such a combination is okay if you do not expect racer's condition and are probably better that using Michelins that have been designed more than 20 years ago. He would certainly not use a 150/80 16, even though Ducati Germany gave an okay. But that is just an opinion. Hence, AVON did (also) not do a specific test (at least that would the provider that sells all available 180/60 told me) and it is not a matching pair in the sense that this combinations is used for some other cycle. However, I will talk to AVON to here if this is right or not. The 130/70 16 from AVON, Metzler, Dunlop etc. are made mainly for the Honda Fireblade (which is rather a racer). The tire provider told me, that he personally thinks that differences if you use a Dunlop 130 180 combination or some other company are rather small but again, this is not proven in any way. Am I wrong?

All the best, Hardo

[paso750]

Hardo, I agree. There may be no bike that actually uses these sizes in combination, but at least the tires are from then same company and have a similar character. Hence they, Avon have no problem issueing a declaration of conformity (Unbedenklichkeitsbescheinigung) for this combination.
The decleration of conformity implies no testing of the tires on a bike but is just a confirmation from the manufacturer that they don`t see any problems in using these models together. It will help though getting TÜV approval if all clearances are fine.

Although there is an official approval I don`t think that many will put an AV45 on a Fireblade as that is not a Supersports tire like ie the Avon Viper/VP2 but rather a Sportstourer tire (used ie on Triumph SpeedTriple, Suzuki SV650, Yamaha FZ6, Honda ST1100 etc - in different sizes of course). According to the shape the AV45 is the best combination for the AV72 as it has a round profile. Supersport tires have a sharper profile for quicker steering. Hence such a tire would react quicker than the AV72 which could feel odd.
(I had an AV45 120/70-17 on my Gilera 600 Nordwest with a 160/60-17 AV46 rear. It was a 46hp Supermoto).

At the end it will all depend on how the Paso is ridden. If one just tours a little and only rides occassionaly it probably won`t make much of a difference what tires are used as all roll.
If you push the bike and also ride it harder the importance of good tires will be greater.
I guess we will all be able to say more when we have ridden our bikes for some time and maybe also tried different options of tires.

G.